Questions For Steve And Pete

[zachman1110]

Daveed:  Thank you so much!  I discovered this while studying the Bible about 6 months ago.    Then I did some research on the origin of Sunday worship.    And I in no way want to take Sunday worship away from people.    But if the Sabbath is more important and special to God, His plan for us, why have we all been misguided for so long and by so many people?  I really feel in my heart and soul that we are ALL to be keeping the Sabbath holy.    Christ kept the Sabbath even through his death!  The Sabbath is mentioned from the very beginning of the Bible til the very end, first chapter to last chapter.   I am not a Seventh Day Adventist or any other Sabbath religion.     In fact I got really tired of trying to find a religion that didn't persecute certain sins, so now I attend a non-denominational church.    I grew up strict Catholic, stopped believing in that church and left it about 8 years ago after my son was born and have been searching and studying and believing and loving everything about God and Christ ever since.   Thanks again for ANY input!

[George]

Zachman,

Pete and Steve have not been able to get to your question, but here are a few things to consider.

First of all, consider Colossians 2:14-16 (New International Version)

14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[a]

 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.


Secondly, No one really know what day is the Sabbath.  There are several calendars that have been in effect - Hebrew calendar, Gregorian calendar, Assyrian calendar, or Zoroastrian calendar, just to name a few.  The days we think of as Monday, etc. may not be the same days that were considered Monday in Moses' time or in Jesus' time.

From "Hebrew Calendar" on Wikipedia
"During Temple times and through the Tannaitic period, the Hebrew calendar was observational, with the beginning of each month determined by the high court based on the testimony of witnesses who had observed a new crescent moon. Periodically, the court ordered an extra month added to keep Passover in the spring, again based on observation of natural events. Through the Amoraic period and into the Geonic period, the purely empirical calendar was displaced by calendrical rules, which finally became systematically arranged into a computed calendar. The principles and rules of the current calendar are fully described by Maimonides in the Mishneh Torah.

Because of the roughly eleven-day difference between twelve lunar months and one solar year, the year lengths of the Hebrew calendar vary in a repeating 19-year Metonic cycle of 235 lunar months, with an intercalary lunar month added according to defined rules every two or three years, for a total of 7 times per 19 years. Seasonal references in the Hebrew calendar reflect its development in the region east of the Mediterranean and the times and climate of the Northern Hemisphere. The Hebrew calendar's year is longer by about 6 minutes and 25+25/57 seconds than the present-day mean solar year, so that every 224 years, the Hebrew calendar will fall a full day behind the modern fixed solar year, and about every 231 years it will fall a full day behind the Gregorian calendar year."

Bottom line, we worship God, not a day.  Just as Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:21-24
 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Also Mark 2:23-28
 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

 25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."

 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Daveed:  Thank you so much!  I discovered this while studying the Bible about 6 months ago.    Then I did some research on the origin of Sunday worship.    And I in no way want to take Sunday worship away from people.    But if the Sabbath is more important and special to God, His plan for us, why have we all been misguided for so long and by so many people?  I really feel in my heart and soul that we are ALL to be keeping the Sabbath holy.    Christ kept the Sabbath even through his death!  The Sabbath is mentioned from the very beginning of the Bible til the very end, first chapter to last chapter.   I am not a Seventh Day Adventist or any other Sabbath religion.     In fact I got really tired of trying to find a religion that didn't persecute certain sins, so now I attend a non-denominational church.    I grew up strict Catholic, stopped believing in that church and left it about 8 years ago after my son was born and have been searching and studying and believing and loving everything about God and Christ ever since.   Thanks again for ANY input!

[Gouda]

..

[Kings_kid]

I've also had a struggle with the Sabbath day issue.  Unquestionably, the Scripture makes it clear that the seventh day was set apart, made holy, for mankind, in the Creation week and was the "Lord's Day" throughout the Bible. (By the way, i am not currently SDA, although i once was).

George:  "First of all, consider Colossians 2:14-16 (New International Version)

14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

K-K:  True, yet 9 of the so-called 10 Commandments are considered still in effect.  It is only the 4th one that we choose to see as abolished or only applying to the Jews.  Can Christians freely murder, lie, steal, disrespect parents, worship idols, covet, commit adultery, etc?  No, but we are told the Sabbath Commandment was done away with.

George:  "Secondly, No one really know what day is the Sabbath.  There are several calendars that have been in effect - Hebrew calendar, Gregorian calendar, Assyrian calendar, or Zoroastrian calendar, just to name a few.  The days we think of as Monday, etc. may not be the same days that were considered Monday in Moses' time or in Jesus' time."

K_k: I thought that too, but it isn't actually true.  The Jews have preserved the 7th day Sabbath since their religion depended on it.  Although there have been several changes in the calendar, they only changed the date of the day, not the relative position in the week.  Thus, Saturday (actually Friday sundown, to Saturday sundown Biblically) has always been the same last day of the week.  Many languages show some connection to this, even though English switched it to Saturn-day.  [Wikipedia: 'In over thirty languages other than English, the common name for this day in the seven-day week is a cognate of "Sabbath".']

George:  "Bottom line, we worship God, not a day."

K_k:  Absolutely.  And our God has written with His finger in stone, twice (since Moses broke the first set of tablets), that we are to Remember the Sabbath Day.  And He specifies His reasons, one of which is that it is a "sign" to identify His people.  So don't we need to worship Him as He has instructed rather than choose our own times?  We can worship Him anytime, yet He called upon His people to come together in worship on a specific day of the week, and then, in patterns of 7's to come together in special worship on feast/festival days.

Jesus never broke the heart of the Sabbath, since doing good to others at the impulse of the Holy Spirit is not work and was not ever forbidden.  He called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath, and showed how it is to be kept.  Naturally, He would not have worked as a carpenter on that Day, and He attended synagogues on Sabbath morning as "was His custom". 

"God is spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am YHWH, who makes you holy."

'Each of you must respect his mother and father, and you must observe My Sabbaths. I am YHWH your Elohim."

"Observe My Sabbaths and have reverence for My sanctuary. I am YHWH."

"You have despised My holy things and desecrated My Sabbaths."

"Keep My Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am YHWH your Elohim."

The list of such statements is long.  So we claim to be worshiping Him in Spirit and in truth, while we ignore His clear statements.  I don't claim to be righteous in this matter, but i see more than just a minor, obsolete requirement in the Sabbath.

Didn't Jesus pray that "their flight not take place on the Sabbath" and He was referring to over 30 years after His death and resurrection, in 70 AD.  There is also Scriptural support for Paul keeping the Sabbath himself, throughout his ministry.

I don't claim to have this fully resolved in light of the grace of God -- Just don't think we should brush it off lightly.


 

[THOR]

George,
Good grief! Those are some of the weakest arguments ever given against keeping the LORD's Sabbath!! You can't be serious?  How can you tell others it's ok to break God's Law as long as you try to Honor Him with stuff you what to do.  Wow! You can't cancel out the Sabbath? Who gave you permission?    It wasn't GOD!   Maybe the evil One...more likely...he's very anti-God and anti-obeying God. Satan wants us to be Anti-Torah (Instruction) so we will be judged as sinners.
The Church (as a whole) dropped the Sabbath because they were taught to hate the Jews and everything Jewish... that is why so much was changed. IT”S HISTORY... READ CHRISTIANS!! It's because of hate! ...not a good reason and Yeshua/God won't buy it when He returns.

Thor

Stop spreading lies!

[toadbat]

George:  "First of all, consider Colossians 2:14-16 (New International Version)

14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

K-K:  True, yet 9 of the so-called 10 Commandments are considered still in effect.  It is only the 4th one that we choose to see as abolished or only applying to the Jews.  Can Christians freely murder, lie, steal, disrespect parents, worship idols, covet, commit adultery, etc?  No, but we are told the Sabbath Commandment was done away with.

Actually, K_k, what I remember Jesus saying is that if I so much as look at a woman with lust in my heart or hate my brother without cause, then I've already committed adultery and murder! If you want to seriously believe that we are still commanded to observe the sabbath and "keep it holy" then you've gone and missed the very essence of the gospel; Christ came to free us from the curse of the law that we should no longer be bound by it's statutes or regulations. (I would also admonish you - or anyone - not to try and use some "back door" reasoning whereby you try and assert that our keeping the sabbath in not actually trying to drag the law back into salvation by grace - it is. End of story). Just a question then, if I am already a believer, and I fail (regularly) to "keep the sabbath," then just what happens to me? Do I now lose my salvation? If you can seriously answer "yes" then I would admonish you to go and re-read Galatians about 5 or 6 times; Paul is rather unsparing to those who believed that they could "hedge their bets" by trying to put even the most innocuous adornments of the law onto Christ's perfect and one-time sacrafice.

George,
Good grief! Those are some of the weakest arguments ever given against keeping the LORD's Sabbath!! You can't be serious?  How can you tell others it's ok to break God's Law as long as you try to Honor Him with stuff you what to do.  Wow! You can't cancel out the Sabbath? Who gave you permission?    It wasn't GOD!   Maybe the evil One...more likely...he's very anti-God and anti-obeying God. Satan wants us to be Anti-Torah (Instruction) so we will be judged as sinners.
The Church (as a whole) dropped the Sabbath because they were taught to hate the Jews and everything Jewish... that is why so much was changed. IT”S HISTORY... READ CHRISTIANS!! It's because of hate! ...not a good reason and Yeshua/God won't buy it when He returns.

Thor

Stop spreading lies!

Actually, Thor, this is just one more case of you accusing someone who does not subscribe to your own brand of semi-pelagianism as being a "liar" or else proliferating "made-up theology." For one thing, Paul himself would be very unimpressed with your love affair with the "jewish roots of our faith"; as I have written above, he was very unsparing to those who tried to press upon the gentiles even the most nascent forms of the law after they had been liberated by the gospel of pure grace. (Yeah, go ahead, accuse me of making that phrase up and saying it does not appear anywhere in the bible; neither does the word "trinity" though the concept - just like "pure grace" - is everywhere implied in the NT).

Also, as George pointed out in Jesus' own words: "...the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath." The sabbath was to point to Christ and his once-for-all and all-sufficient sacrafice on our behalves. It is in him that we cease from all our labors and efforts (as there is nothing more for us to do in the sense of being justified in His eyes). One more thing, (and sorry to take this down to such a personal level) the tone of hysteria that creeps into your posts every now and then (definitely now!) detracts from the general credibility of whay you are attempting to say. In short, you become just as much of a "fabricator" as those whom you are railing against! If you
go back and look at your post, you will even see that you got so flustered that you even lost control of your use of grammar. I know that believing that one can lose one's salvation can be very taxing for a person's mind; it always has one on kind of a crusade against one thing or another does it not?

[Kings_kid]

toadbat: "Christ came to free us from the curse of the law that we should no longer be bound by it's statutes or regulations."

K_k:  He came to set us free from the curse of the law.  Not from the Commandments of God which He writes on our hearts and minds.  It is never OK to lie, steal, murder, worship idols. disrespect parents, covet, etc.  Grace doesn't free us from the need to obey God, it empowers us to follow His directions while freeing us from the penalty of disobedience. 

We are to learn to love, which is what His Commandments were always about.  I don't say breaking His rules of love causes us to loose salvation, which He gives as an eternal Gift - salvation is the very Life of Jesus, Who will never leave nor forsake those that are His.

"This is the Covenant I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."  Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33

Note that He doesn't eliminate His Laws in Christ, He establishes them, in us.  We are not under bondage to laws apart from Christ but He progressively writes the Laws of God's love on our inward parts as we become more fully His.

"Do we then make void the Law through faith?  Certainly not!  On the contrary, we establish the Law."  Romans 3:31

We need to revise our personal theology to agree with Paul on this.  And with Jesus when He said:

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these Commandments, and teaches men to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven."

The Sabbath Commandment has been considered the least of the ones written by the very hand of God.  And men have taught that it has been abolished, although the other 9 are clearly still in effect.  Selah.  (Pause and consider this.)

[THOR]

Actually, Thor, this is just one more case of you accusing someone who does not subscribe to your own brand of semi-pelagianism as being a "liar" or else proliferating "made-up theology."

No it's a rebuke to someone for teaching others to break God;s commandments. It ok to do that...it's Biblical. It's better than allowing even more believers to be confused.

For one thing, Paul himself would be very unimpressed with your love affair with the "jewish roots of our faith";

"jewish roots of our faith"...you say it like it was a dirty thing!

Paul wasn't a Commandment breaker. Listen to his own words:

Act 25:7  And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.
Act 25:8  While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Act 28:17  And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

as I have written above, he was very unsparing to those who tried to press upon the gentiles even the most nascent forms of the law after they had been liberated by the gospel of pure grace. (Yeah, go ahead, accuse me of making that phrase up and saying it does not appear anywhere in the bible; neither does the word "trinity" though the concept - just like "pure grace" - is everywhere implied in the NT).

 Paul was always trying to get gentile believers to obey the Torah..hence the Epistles!  Your right it's (the gospel of pure grace) a made up term to support a made of theology of being saved through predestination instead of the actual Biblical way of a personal  acceptance of faith in Christ.

You don't have a clear understanding of what the problem was concerning the new gentile believers.
The issue was not following God's Commandments (which you think are Jewish,,,for whatever reason)
The problem was:
Act 15:1  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Calvinism is the Galatian heresy wrapped up in a 15th century package. Instead of circumcision it's predestination that seals salvation. It's a very subtle change up; but a very deadly difference from salvation through faith.

“Except ye be predestined after the manner of “?”, ye cannot be saved. 

The Good News is that anyone can be saved if they place their faith in Christ. That's truly Good News not some are automatically saved and most automatically lost...that would be Bad News!

Thor

Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...

[Kings_kid]

thor:  "jewish roots of our faith"...you say it like it was a dirty thing!"

K_k:  It seems difficult for us to remember that the chosen people of God, the children of Israel, the prophets, Jesus Himself, the disciples, the Scriptures, the prophecies of the end times, the coming New Jerusalem and "new world order", all relate to that people (the "Jews" as we now label them).

[George]

Thor,

We worship Jesus, not the sabbath.

Thank you for your response.

George

George,
Good grief! Those are some of the weakest arguments ever given against keeping the LORD's Sabbath!! You can't be serious?  How can you tell others it's ok to break God's Law as long as you try to Honor Him with stuff you what to do.  Wow! You can't cancel out the Sabbath? Who gave you permission?    It wasn't GOD!   Maybe the evil One...more likely...he's very anti-God and anti-obeying God. Satan wants us to be Anti-Torah (Instruction) so we will be judged as sinners.
The Church (as a whole) dropped the Sabbath because they were taught to hate the Jews and everything Jewish... that is why so much was changed. IT”S HISTORY... READ CHRISTIANS!! It's because of hate! ...not a good reason and Yeshua/God won't buy it when He returns.

Thor

Stop spreading lies!

[THOR]

Huh? who said anything about worshipng the Sabbath?
Jesus/God gave us the Sabbath to remember and rest on. I think it's right in there with the other Big Ten Commandments. ...must be important to God! That's all I'm saying!

Thor 

[Kings_kid]

It is so easy for us to forget that God wrote the Sabbath Commandment in stone for us with His Own finger, twice, along with the other 9.  And that was after pronouncing them verbally at Sinai, which shook the earth. 

Yet Christians, who would never recommend people violate or ignore 9 of the 10, want to separate out and eliminate the Commandment of which He said,

“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am (YHWH) the LORD Who sanctifies you."  Exodus 31:13

"Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.  It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD (YHWH) made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God."  Exodus 31:16-18

One of the primary signs of God's people, a weekly "date" with Him on His chosen day, a directive which begins "Remember"!, has been forgotten as useless.  We say it is only for the Jews, "the children of Israel", and then forget that we are grafted into their Vine, made Israelites in Christ.

[Willis]

Uhh...didn't Jesus say there was really only TWO commandments?
 

[klab]

Uhh...didn't Jesus say there was really only TWO commandments?
 

lol

[Kings_kid]

Willis: "Uhh...didn't Jesus say there was really only TWO commandments?"

K_K:  He pointed to the two great summary Commandments.  The greatest Commandment summarizes the first 4 of the ones written in stone by God's hand (actually it was Christ, i believe, before He became Jesus, that wrote on stone tablets with His finger).  The second great Commandment summarizes the last 6 of the ones He gave us in rock-solid personally handwritten form.

If we love the Lord, our God, (Dad), with all our hearts, minds and souls, and our neighbor as ourselves, we will not worship idols, or take His name in vain, or steal, or commit adultery, or murder, or lie, or covet, or dishonor parents, etc.  (Notice that i forgot to Remember the Sabbath Day, as most Christians would.)

So the two don't eliminate the 10.  Nor does our having Christ living in and through us eliminate the 2 great summaries.  Instead, He establishes the moral Law by writing it on our hearts and minds, from the inside out. 

"For sin, seizing the opportunity and getting a hold on me [by taking its incentive] from the Commandment, beguiled and entrapped and cheated me, and using it [as a weapon], killed me.

"The Law therefore is holy, and [each] Commandment is holy and just and good.

"Did that which is good then prove fatal [bringing death] to me? Certainly not! It was sin, working death in me by using this good thing [as a weapon], in order that through the Commandment sin might be shown up clearly to be sin, that the extreme malignity and immeasurable sinfulness of sin might plainly appear."  Romans 7:11-13  Amplified

K_k:  It is not the Law, the Commandments, that are the problem.  They are holy and just and good eternal principles.  The problem is us.  We are hopeless rebels who can't do anything really right apart from a Savior.  The Commandments show us our need for Christ, and are promises of our future when "shalt not" sin because of His transforming love.  Then the Commandments will no longer be needed, though still in effect, because we will be fully united with and unwaveringly obedient to the Giver of the Commandments.