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Author Topic: Steve's comment about Allah  (Read 1878 times)
beacon2
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« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2012, 12:45:32 PM »


The difference between non literal (your term) and what I mean by "hyper literal" is not one of symbolic vs literal but of context, continuity, genre, literary device and so on. I dont know why I have to keep repeating this.

I agree ml.  Context and continuity.  And that is why I mentioned  that the John 8:19 vs I quoted is affirmed by Jesus in the context of John Chap 8 -- there is more there that Jesus says to make His point.  

As far as a literary device,  which one would you say Jesus used in verse 19?  Perhaps I'm missing something there.


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If reading Jesus leads you to gross micharacterization of the Jews as a people and even possibly antisemitism, it is you with the problem. I dont need to defend myself here.



And yes, I was very much aware that my comments might be misconstrued as anti-semitic.  But our Lord plainly said what He said in John 8:19 and the rest of Chap 8,  and I don't think any of us here would label him or  even imply that He was  anti-semitic.  He was just speaking the truth about non-believing Jews.


b2

 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 08:24:17 AM by beacon2 » Logged

Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one.
morning listener
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« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2012, 01:31:39 PM »

Hey, Mel Gibson,
There are volumes and volumes written about this subject which you can educate yourself with and since it is your issue and not mine, I am not getting much out of this. i am asserting that the Jews worshipped Yahweh and not another God. I have stated why. Anything else which you have taken up is quite repellent and cliched and of no interest to me. Once again, it is your problem, not mine.
As for your concern for my hermaneutics, again, I have only ever regretted putting the effort in debating it on here. I can go to great lengths to explain myself and people just revert to their default positions anyway. So why dont we move on?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 01:34:46 PM by morning listener » Logged

Victory over violence, not through violence

God breaks the grip of scapegoating by stepping into the place of a victim, and by being a victim who cannot be hidden or mythologized. God acts not to affirm the suffering of the innocent victim as the price of peace but to reverse it.

-S. Mark Heim
Kings_kid
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« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2012, 01:55:05 PM »

KK,

Again the point is missed. Your logic necessitates that the Jews believe in a different God than Christians. So the Bible depicts Yahweh, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham etc and then God the father of Jesus. 2 Gods. Is that your contention?

Misaprehending an object does not magically turn it into an actual second object. Otherwise the universe would be so Full of Jesuses we couldnt move.

Read my pie analogy again.

If we believe that the Muslims believe in an actual existing entity who tricked them, or duped them, who is not the same entity of the God of Abraham, Yahweh, this makes sense - whether we are right or wrong. If we belive (as I do) that Mohammed just made the whole thing up, much like the founder of Bahai or Joseph Smith, this makes sense - whether we are roght or wrong. But if we say that Muslims believe in the God of Abraham but this is a different god because they dont belive in Jesus then we MUST say the same thing aout the Jews. And I dont think anyone here would actually say that.


The God of the OT is the God of the NT.  There is no other living god, only false ones.  He revealed Himself in the Hebrew Bible and in the NT writings to be the same God Who never changes.  And the more we study the older writings the more we see Christ was there all along, as the Living Word of God.

Saying that we "believe in god" when referring to an idol made with human hands does not mean the same as believing in the Living God.  There are increasing numbers of Jews who accept Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah.  But for those who don't they may believe things about God that are not true, yet they accept the Scriptures which define Him and clearly reveal Christ as Savior when they see the Word by the Spirit.

For muslims, on the other hand, they are trained to trust in a book which very much contradicts the Book He gave us.  And they are trained to believe that the true Word is corrupted and deceitful.  So they are misled into a completely different concept of God, which is actually contrary to His nature as revealed by His directly inspired Writings.  Not quite like the pie illustration.

Notice that Abraham was given various "pre-figuring" or "forshadowings" of Christ and he believed God.  Recall that when he went to offer up his son Isaac, that he told the two servants with him that he and the boy would go up on the mountain to offer sacrifices and then they would return.  This showed he believed God would somehow raise his son from the dead, as the Heavenly Father later raised His Sacrificed Son from the dead.

Genesis 22:2-6
"Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

"So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

"Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off.  And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.”

"So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. "

K_k:  Of course, there are many parallels here with the NT.  Jesus carried His Cross, Isaac the wood, to the "mountain of sacrifice".  Isaac had two servants, Jesus had two thieves, one on each side.  God provided the ram for Isaac's sacrifice, because Jesus was to be the Lamb of God, "slain from the foundation of the earth".  And on the third day, both Isaac and Jesus came back from the sacrificial slaying.

Jesus came riding on a donkey, as Isaac did.  Isaac went on to become the "father of nations" that were promised to Abraham, as Jesus went on to become the Life-giving Spirit for all those who will be saved.

And God had revealed much to Abraham which he didn't yet understand, but he believed/trusted Him, and that was "counted to him for righteousness".  Abraham believed that God would send the "promised Seed" Who is Christ, and he was thus saved.  Muslims change the story to Ishmael being the "son of promise" and thus reject the Messianic line completely.

There is only One Living God, and He has revealed Himself through His Word.  Going directly against that Word, mankind creates a variety of false deities, but they are not the same God, rather they are inventions of someone's imagination.  They may have some of the same characteristics as God but unless they show forth His love as He reveals to us in Christ they are teaching a caricature instead of a reality.
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beacon2
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« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2012, 09:18:03 AM »



The God of the OT is the God of the NT.  There is no other living god, only false ones.  He revealed Himself in the Hebrew Bible and in the NT writings to be the same God Who never changes.  And the more we study the older writings the more we see Christ was there all along, as the Living Word of God.

I agree KK. And prior to God's revelation of His Son,  only those who believed in the Word (Jesus Christ) given to them in OT times by God believed in the true One.

Quote
kk.   There are increasing numbers of Jews who accept Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah.  But for those who don't they may believe things about God that are not true, yet they accept the Scriptures which define Him and clearly reveal Christ as Savior when they see the Word by the Spirit.

Yes, there is an increasing number of Jews who have come to accept Christ.  Our bible study leader of over ten years is one of them.  It is a blessing to see God's Word about the Jewish remnant who will believe in the Son being further fulfilled in our times.

But your following statement is not supported by scripture:

 "but for those who don't" [accept Christ] "yet they accept the Scriptures which define Him and clearly reveal Christ as Savior when they see the Word by the Spirit."

First, on those Jews who did not/do not accept Christ, did not/do not accept the scriptures that talk about Him:  


John 5:39-40 You diligently study [fn] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life

John 5:45-47
"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"


Second,  only those people (regardless of ethnicity) who have been born again through belief in Jesus Christ have the Spirit to help them discern the scriptures and accept them.

1John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.


1Cor 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I know you will appreciate that I'm quoting scripture back to you KK.   Smiley

b2
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 03:26:41 PM by beacon2 » Logged

Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one.
Willis
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« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2012, 10:51:57 AM »

Romans 11

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes so that they could not see
    and ears so that they could not hear,
    to this very day.”

9 And David says:

    “May their table become a snare and a trap,
    a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
    10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    and their backs be bent forever.”

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 
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Kings_kid
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« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2012, 12:32:25 PM »



The God of the OT is the God of the NT.  There is no other living god, only false ones.  He revealed Himself in the Hebrew Bible and in the NT writings to be the same God Who never changes.  And the more we study the older writings the more we see Christ was there all along, as the Living Word of God.

I agree KK. And prior to God's revelation of His Son,  only those who believed in the Word (Jesus Christ) given to them in OT times by God believed in the true One.

Quote
kk.   There are increasing numbers of Jews who accept Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah.  But for those who don't they may believe things about God that are not true, yet they accept the Scriptures which define Him and clearly reveal Christ as Savior when they see the Word by the Spirit.

Yes, there is an increasing number of Jews who have come to accept Christ.  Our bible study leader of over ten years is one of them.  It is a blessing to see God's Word about the Jewish remnant who will believe in the Son being further fulfilled in our times.

But your following statement is not supported by scripture:

 "but for those who don't" [accept Christ] "yet they accept the Scriptures which define Him and clearly reveal Christ as Savior when they see the Word by the Spirit."

First, those Jews who did not/do not accept Christ, did not/do not accept the scriptures that talk about Him.  


John 5:39-40 You diligently study [fn] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life

John 5:45-47
"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"


Second,  only those people (regardless of ethnicity) who have been born again through belief in Jesus Christ have the Spirit to help them discern the scriptures and accept them.

1John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.


1Cor 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I know you will appreciate that I'm quoting scripture back to you KK.   Smiley

b2


Yes, beacon-of-light-2, i appreciate a strong reliance on Scripture in anyone, whether i agree with that person or not.

And willis, that was superb.  I don't think we can necessarly say "all jews will be saved" historically (doesn't look like Judas or Caiaphas is going to make it, for example).  But those non-Messianic-jews alive when Christ comes back will be given the understanding that they were wrong, and Jesus Christ is Lord, and if they love YHWH now, they will love Yeshua then.

And this may be the prophecy that is then fulfilled:

Zechariah 12:9-11
"It shall be in that Day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

K_k:  Yet their mourning will be turned into rejoicing as they receive their long-awaited Messiah and King.

"Blessed are those who mourn,
    For they shall be comforted."

"Blessed are the pure in heart,
    For they shall see God."

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    For they shall be filled."

from Matthew 5

And now, for a surprise return to the topic, isn't it possible that a person who is raised to know only "allah" as god, and has been told the Bible is corrupted, and sees that so-called "christians" have done great harm through history in the name of Jesus -- isn't it possible that such a person who loves "allah" with much of their heart and mind and soul and strength, will see instantly in Jesus Christ the Truth about God which they had been kept from seeing until then?

And might they not join the jews (and non-jews), who were wrong about Christ Jesus, in mourning over HIm, and repenting toward Him, and receiving Him, and rejoicing with Him?

Could be.  Our Heavenly Daddy is soo verily goood!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 12:58:08 PM by Kings_kid » Logged
beacon2
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« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2012, 04:25:29 PM »


Willis,

I appreciate the scriptures you quoted.  This is a chapter that I’d love to discuss more at length sometime because a misunderstanding of it has given rise to some erroneous doctrines on how God relates to and will deal with Israelites in the end times.  And as a result IMO, it takes away the incentive for some Christians to evangelize them.

I will say though that Rom Chap 11 needs to be understood in light of what verse 5  in Chap 11 says and also verse 27 in Rom Chap 9:
 
Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Rom 11:5  So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.


Therefore, I agree with KK in that only an Israelite remnant will be saved.  I wish I could see something different in the scriptures --  and that not only all Israelites but also all nonbelievers regardless of ethnicity would be saved –- but as of yet I haven’t.

I certainly do not boast of the fact that I believe in Christ as Savior and others don’t.  For it is only through God’s mercy and grace that any one can come to trust in Christ.

Knowing this, I love to approach all nonbelievers, regardless of ethnicity, with the good news of what our Lord has done for them and His offer of eternal life if they come to Him.

b2

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Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one.
Kings_kid
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« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2012, 11:21:02 AM »



....

I certainly do not boast of the fact that I believe in Christ as Savior and others don’t.  For it is only through God’s mercy and grace that any one can come to trust in Christ.

Knowing this, I love to approach all nonbelievers, regardless of ethnicity, with the good news of what our Lord has done for them and His offer of eternal life if they come to Him.

b2



Me2, b2.
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morning listener
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« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2012, 11:34:31 AM »

Brother Willis. Awesome post.

I think what people often miss when they parse this or that part of it, (maybe so they can retain their view, i don't know) is that basically Paul is saying, imo, anyway, 'now that you have this dont go getting all uppity about the Jews. Theyve been at this thing a looong time, falling down and getting up and God will do what he will do with them. Worry about yourselves and your own atitudes because what he does or does not do with them he can do with y'all and you wouldnt be here without them'. It also has interesting implications for OSAS tucked in there (but lets not go there).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 11:39:42 AM by morning listener » Logged

Victory over violence, not through violence

God breaks the grip of scapegoating by stepping into the place of a victim, and by being a victim who cannot be hidden or mythologized. God acts not to affirm the suffering of the innocent victim as the price of peace but to reverse it.

-S. Mark Heim
Kings_kid
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« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2012, 12:18:24 PM »


With regard to the topic, it will be difficult for some muslims (and some christians, and  some liberal jews and some...) to accept the fact that God gave both His Word and His Son through the jews.  Not that they deserved it in any human way, only by His grace, as each of us can only be saved by His grace.

When we accept the Savior, we are accepting the Words He gave, and the people He chose to reveal His real nature and character through.  Including Israel -- never perfect, often chastised for wandering away, yet magnifying the power and glory of God, the true God -- sometimes unknowingly.

And in the Ending Times to come, Israel will yet again be the location and the people through whom our Dad gives the final call to grace and freedom in Him.

Some say, based on Revelation, that 144,000 Pauls are coming to give the people of earth a last chance to turn to God.  144,000 evangelists like Paul, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.  Pleading with everyone to be reconciled, one last time.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 12:26:42 PM by Kings_kid » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2012, 04:12:00 PM »

I appreciate Steve's analysis. I used to think it was as simple as saying that if somebody doesn't believe all of the fundamantals of Christianity, then that person indeed doesn't know the One True God at all. Period. However, Paul's teaching about all people being without excuse because of God's revealing Himself in various ways, is an excellent point and should enable a believer to further clarify what makes us different than unbelievers. We may be surprised to learn that there's only one thing that separates "us" from "them", and that one thing is the most important thing.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 04:04:39 PM by BFDD » Logged

It's not the critic who counts..Credit belongs to the man who was in the arena..the man who strives to do the deeds..who at best, knows triumph..at worst fails while daring greatly..his place shall never be..with those knowing neither victory nor defeat.
Kings_kid
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« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2012, 09:46:48 PM »


In 12 step fellowships, like AA, there is a saying that goes like this:

"The most important thing to know about God is that there is One, and you aren't Him."

That realization alone would help many people begin to seek and find Him.

According to some prior drunken gods of the universe, that is.
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