Love your enemies it messes with their minds

[klab]

Don't really WANT to try locusts either ...

OH GRASSHOPPER dip them in chocolate they are good

or maybe some pepper and salt... or how about some honey?

would that bee wild honey?

oh heck who are we john the b?

[daveed]

Don't really WANT to try locusts either ...

OH GRASSHOPPER dip them in chocolate they are good

or maybe some pepper and salt... or how about some honey?

would that bee wild honey?

oh heck who are we john the b?

Some of us are of the Elijah Generation...

[klab]

Some of us are of the Elijah Generation...

hmmmmmmmmmmm ok i give up

[daveed]

Some of us are of the Elijah Generation...

hmmmmmmmmmmm ok i give up

Look up ((((( Unit-E ))))) on youtube.com

depending on which video you pull up you may find the answer you seek.

oh... leave off the parenthesis. *chuckles*

[Kings_kid]

Somehow this discussion got into spinach cheesecake, so i might seem irrelevant or irreverent (or both) but that's OK.  I can't cook, but i just love to mess with minds, even if it takes loving an enemy!

---------
Gouda: "I think the "love your enemies; it messes with their minds" thing is a lot like the scripture about "heaping coals of fire upon their heads".  When we act in an unexpected way, we tend to prod the repressed conscience of a person, and a re-awakened sense of self and right/wrong can sometimes bring more change than any lecture or fight or law."
--------

K_k:  Did ya'll hear about the cultural explanation of "heaping coals of fire upon their heads"?  What i hear is that this was a common way of helping folks back in Bible days.

Like, they didn't have BIC lighters or matches then, so they kept the fires burning, or at least smoldering, all night long to have tomorrow's fire for that day's bread.  But if your fire went out for some reason, you had to go to your neighbor's place to "borrow some fire".

But burning coals are hot.  Duh.  So they had thick little clay platters which they put on their heads to carry the hot coals home in.

Thus, doing good to your enemy is like helping them to light their fire, which had gone out.  (Our God is a consuming fire, and Jesus is the Light of the world)  Doesn't mean that we have to singe off their hair with kindness, i don't think.   

[Kings_kid]

Reminds me of C.S. Lewis' phrase "surprised by joy".  If we can give a little joy-jolt to someone who might have seemed to be an enemy, and wasn't expecting it, then barriers can melt down, and sometimes quickly.

I once worked for a phone company customer service department for a short while, so i remember what it was like being on the service side of an angry-enemy customer complaint.  I just loved it when i could really help the person, and lower their bill or refund some money.  I went all out ("constrained" by the compassion of Christ, of course).  And i had some amazing "turn-arounds" as the customers realized i actually was on their side 100%.  Naturally, i didn't last long at that job since i wasn't very profitable for the company.

Now i love to talk to customer service reps and try to "make their day".  I get to laugh with them all over the country, even the world (India, anyway).  You can tell some of them have had several "adversarial calls" recently, so they are relieved to talk to someone who wants to encourage them.  And i often tell them that they deserve a raise and that they should tell their manager that a previously irate customer said so!!

Even on the phone you can see the smiles 

[mylife4him]

As a retired youth care worker for abused and neglected children, I always struggled with that "Love your enemies" command...( not a suggestion; a command )

And what about how we must forgive others before He will forgive us?

I struggle with forgiving abusers.... how does one advocate for the helpless/victims and yet just ' forgive and forget' ? Oh, I was able to 'act' professionally and not jump up and wring their necks but in my heart, I couldnt wait for God to give them what they "deserve".
Oh, if He gave us what we all truely deserve, we'd be doomed.

Personally, I have committed some unspeakable sins and often times struggle with even being able to forgive myself, let alone someone who deliberately hurts little children.....

Lord, please help us to do Your will...help us to have forgiving hearts....i cant even imagine life without Your Love in it....please stay close to  us, even as we continue to follow our own ways instead of Yours. Please dont ever leave us....
in Jesus name we pray
amen

[Joker]

As a retired youth care worker for abused and neglected children, I always struggled with that "Love your enemies" command...( not a suggestion; a command )

Patti, you remind me of several discussions I've had with a young man who was used and abused as a child and a teenager - and the scars won't heal.    I tell him Jesus commands us to forgive our enemies, not just for their sake but also for our own; he counters, "Then how is there justice?"  But if you want to be like The Punisher comic strip character, torturing and killing those who abuse children and sell drugs and murder the innocent, how are you any different from them?   Aren't you just looking for a pretext to indulge the cruelty in your own heart?  "But if you do not confront real Evil, are you not morally complicit in allowing it?"  Then are you absolutely convinced of your own moral righteousness before a God who knows everything about you?  "Am I supposed to believe in a god who considers all sins equal, who considers lying the same as murder?  What a mockery of justice!  Furthermore, am I supposed to believe in a loving god who created a world full of Evil?"   Then where does it end?  Evil act and evil retribution and evil counter-retribution in and endless cycle until we kill each other off?  Without a God who promises to redeem all Creation, where is there hope for a truly just world?

And so it goes.

[klab]

the fact is evil is insidious and it hurts us if not directly by around us.  that why it is so imparative to forgive like we also have been forgiven . the act of forgiveness stops the person who has hurt us from controling who we are. It strips them of their power over us. Unforgiveness grows a bitter root in our very souls that seems to hit us with waves of depression and greyness or cloudiyness. In my life it comes as a feeling of great aloneness it takes the color right out of my world I find myself quenching my teeth and focasing on the waves of dispare. At these times I almost forget GOD infact I am ashamed to say that I get so angry at HIM I act like a connered badger attack attack attack until GOD reminds me that I am a child of HIS that I am forgiven that HE is restoring me moment by moment that HE loves me just the way I am I need not get better to be with HIM that I do not have to be clean that I do not have to be healed to be with HIM and color floods into me and HE restores my JOY of HIS salvation The hot tears flow down just writting you this This day I choose GOD.

[Kings_kid]

Thanks for that, klab.

In the 12 step fellowships there is a saying that maintaining a resentment against someone is like giving them free rent in your head.  It also shuts out the "sunlight of the Spirit", and actually poisons our blood stream (and His Bloodstream, come to think of it).

We are to forgive others as we have been forgiven, and i don't believe we can do that without Him.  One thing that helps is to pray for the people we have resentments against.

When i first heard that resentment was giving someone free rent in my head, and that i needed to pray for the person i resented, i immediately got angry that i was giving my ex-wife free rent, and started "praying" for her to get what she deserved, for her to go face God, right now.  But as i continued trying to pray for her, the attitude began to change, and i started to mean the prayers for her welfare.  I began to want God's best for her, even as i wanted it for me.

And eventually the resentment was gone, along with the bitterness and associated blood-poisons.  I went through the same kind of process with my father-in-law.  Then it became easier to forgive as i have been forgiven, which is much, very much.  And the more i forgave, the nicer God seemed to get, even though He didn't change.  It's hard to see the love of God through eyes of hate.

[Priscilla JOY]

until GOD reminds me that I am a child of HIS that I am forgiven that HE is restoring me moment by moment that HE loves me just the way I am I need not get better to be with HIM that I do not have to be clean that I do not have to be healed to be with HIM and color floods into me and HE restores my JOY of HIS salvation The hot tears flow down just writting you this This day I choose GOD.

Thank you Klab. "The color floods into me and HE restores my JOY of HIS salvation"...absolutely beautiful. Makes we want to shout out praises to Him... our Reedemer, our Rescuer, Restorer. You are sooo beautiful Jesus. Your beauty pours out when your beloved praise YOU and call on You.

And Patti, I see your tender heart and I stand with you in your prayer. All for His Glory.

[mybigGod]

Thanks for that, klab.

In the 12 step fellowships there is a saying that maintaining a resentment against someone is like giving them free rent in your head.  It also shuts out the "sunlight of the Spirit", and actually poisons our blood stream (and His Bloodstream, come to think of it).

We are to forgive others as we have been forgiven, and i don't believe we can do that without Him.  One thing that helps is to pray for the people we have resentments against.

When i first heard that resentment was giving someone free rent in my head, and that i needed to pray for the person i resented, i immediately got angry that i was giving my ex-wife free rent, and started "praying" for her to get what she deserved, for her to go face God, right now.  But as i continued trying to pray for her, the attitude began to change, and i started to mean the prayers for her welfare.  I began to want God's best for her, even as i wanted it for me.

And eventually the resentment was gone, along with the bitterness and associated blood-poisons.  I went through the same kind of process with my father-in-law.  Then it became easier to forgive as i have been forgiven, which is much, very much.  And the more i forgave, the nicer God seemed to get, even though He didn't change.  It's hard to see the love of God through eyes of hate.

Kk... forgiveness is something we get from God. He says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. The fact is that we never confess all of our sins because we may not understand what sins are more grievous than others. So we may focus on the rule of scripture and not understand the nature of sin. If you look at first John then you will see the process of forgiveness. We confess our sins... we realize we are sinners after confession or we are liars. And if we have fellowship with those who are in our immediate fellowship then we are being forgiven of sin ... the sins that we are not aware of or we are enjoying a gracious connection to the bigness of God.
Because we are not really identified as those relationships in the world make us think as to our sin. Nor are we obligated to confess our sins to unbelievers. At most there may be a need to have a close personal friend who keeps the lid on our emotional responses to tough situations. Because we become emotional about the problems we have with other people and sometimes if we are taught that the focus is on man then every decision that we make will be an obligation to the law of man. Which is not reality... its our imagination. There is an emotional relaxing that we get in the wrong response to the law in receiving forgiveness.
Paul says that when the law revived ... the law of sin and death .. or the law that condemns sin ... then he want to do the sin more. If we make forgiveness ... the sermon on the mount kind... according to an absolute law then we are placing a burden on someone that we could never achieve.
Our new relationship to God is that we died to the law that we might live for Christ. We are now sons of God. As a son we are no longer under the law. We now have open access to our Father through the full work of Christ on the cross. Our Father deals with us in this relationship like we are his children. There is no longer a discipline for each sin or a response of anger toward us His children. We have this new relationship that is out of love. Like Steve says... if we are not loved then we are not going to love. Now it no longer matters even what others think of us. It only matters what our Father thinks of us. And we know that He is eternally fond of us.
 This is where we start... even if we never confessed one sin! Go ahead and sin with all the might you have . If you have a warped view of God then you need his love more than forgiveness at this point. Or His free grace. May the curses fall on all those who add one thing to the gospel- i only say this because of the lies told in a more prominent way... and to show the distress it causes people. 

[Kings_kid]

What i was referring to mbG, was the resentment and hatred i had held onto for many years against my step-father and ex-wife.  As i learned how much i had been forgiven via Christ's death on the Cross, it slowly became obvious that i had no right to hold tightly to resentments against anyone, for any reason. 

And it was through the process of praying for those others that the forgiveness of them began to come, at deeper and deeper levels.  "Forgive as we have been forgiven", with the compassion He has shown to us passed on to those we have had no love for, at all.

Freedom.  From Him.

[mybigGod]

What i was referring to mbG, was the resentment and hatred i had held onto for many years against my step-father and ex-wife.  As i learned how much i had been forgiven via Christ's death on the Cross, it slowly became obvious that i had no right to hold tightly to resentments against anyone, for any reason.  

And it was through the process of praying for those others that the forgiveness of them began to come, at deeper and deeper levels.  "Forgive as we have been forgiven", with the compassion He has shown to us passed on to those we have had no love for, at all.

Freedom.  From Him.

Here s my 7 pillars of freedom

 1. God loves us more than we know. He accepts us with our addictions. We cannot prove that we are faithful by anything we do to better ourselves. God accepts us as we are as weak and sinful people.

2. Jesus paid the full price for all of our sins. He not only substituted for past present and future sins but for the consequences as well. We just come to Him and He erases all of our sins. The more that we resist mans attempts to get us to do something in order to be forgiven the more we will grow in our confidence to do as we are called to do.

 3. Doctrine is practice. The more narrow we are in our beliefs the more we are going to see our own expression of purpose define down the level of frustration and anxiety.

 4. Our problems in relationships is that we do not find enough reality in expressing ourselves as we really feel. We depend upon the experts to tell us how to think and feel. We are more concerned about what others think of our expression than we are about our own reality.

 5. Our main problem is not that we behave a certain way in ordering our lives to promote peace. But we do not have a freedom within ourselves to think feel and act with complete freedom. The stream of desire does not come from this complete holistic paradigm. Our first impulse when we are struggling with a sin that is hard to face is that we suppress our thinking... i mean we blame it on the sin... in suppressing our thinking we limit our freedom to feel and in limiting our freedom to feel we do things because some else defines the normalcy of a society by threats and punishment. The weak people never face that fear that they are being dominated. While the stronger types become the dominate force. Both these extremes have the same inward reality at work.

 6. Change does not come through exposure. Change comes through a determination to be dogmatic no matter what. The path to change is through focusing on one thing and finding all of our desires influenced and encouraged in assimilating the image of that person into our souls. When we love one Person then we will not find it difficult to talk in the rite way about everything else. There are no rules in learning how to love. The rules create the motive to talk about people in a way that enforces a wrong image in the purpose to increase every ones value.

7. Real freedom is having a friend who will be there to be an encouragement when we are exploding with passionate discernment. Because we are made to think..feel ... and act in a holistic way. Everything about our reality is dogmatic.  

[spockrates]

Here s my 7 pillars of freedom

 1.  God loves us more than we know.  He accepts us with our addictions.  We cannot prove that we are faithful by anything we do to better ourselves.  God accepts us as we are as weak and sinful people. 

2.  Jesus paid the full price for all of our sins.  He not only substituted for past present and future sins but for the consequences as well.  We just come to Him and He erases all of our sins.  The more that we resist mans attempts to get us to do something in order to be forgiven the more we will grow in our confidence to do as we are called to do.

 3.  Doctrine is practice.  The more narrow we are in our beliefs the more we are going to see our own expression of purpose define down the level of frustration and anxiety.

 4.  Our problems in relationships is that we do not find enough reality in expressing ourselves as we really feel.  We depend upon the experts to tell us how to think and feel.  We are more concerned about what others think of our expression than we are about our own reality. 

 5.  Our main problem is not that we behave a certain way in ordering our lives to promote peace.  But we do not have a freedom within ourselves to think feel and act with complete freedom.  The stream of desire does not come from this complete holistic paradigm.  Our first impulse when we are struggling with a sin that is hard to face is that we suppress our thinking. . .  i mean we blame it on the sin. . .  in suppressing our thinking we limit our freedom to feel and in limiting our freedom to feel we do things because some else defines the normalcy of a society by threats and punishment.  The weak people never face that fear that they are being dominated.  While the stronger types become the dominate force.  Both these extremes have the same inward reality at work. 

 6.  Change does not come through exposure.  Change comes through a determination to be dogmatic no matter what.  The path to change is through focusing on one thing and finding all of our desires influenced and encouraged in assimilating the image of that person into our souls.  When we love one Person then we will not find it difficult to talk in the rite way about everything else.  There are no rules in learning how to love.  The rules create the motive to talk about people in a way that enforces a wrong image in the purpose to increase every ones value. 

7.  Real freedom is having a friend who will be there to be an encouragement when we are exploding with passionate discernment.  Because we are made to think. . feel . . .  and act in a holistic way.  Everything about our reality is dogmatic.   

I like your seven pillars better than the seven of Islam.