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 on: September 29, 2014, 01:06:54 PM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by morning listener
Works have their place. Read Ephesians 2:9. We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God had ordained that we should walk in them.

But they are the outflowing of a grateful heart in response to what Christ has done for us. If one can come into a relationship with Christ by their own efforts, then Christ died in vain.

Mark, based on your background and where you have come through to this point, I don't expect you to understand my passion on these issues.

MBG's position is confusing. Either you believe the great truths of the Reformation, that our forefathers shed their blood defending, or you don't. That's as straight as I can say it.


I understand your passion Bill (although Im not sure what my background has to do with it). Im just saying that it doesn't follow from what is being argued on my end. It never does and yet its trotted out ceaselessly (not only by you). Its a non-sequitir. As is LA's question. Unless of course you are arguing that discipleship and paying attention to Jesus is "works righteousness". Discipleship is not a means or method of "salvation" - it is a natural response to and reflection of Jesus Christ's influence. Obsession over how one gets "saved" - after the fact, over the course of ones entire life in Christ is like changing your tire everyday after the flat has already been changed. I have never argued that one has to go around doing works and being perfect and "not sinning" in order to "get saved" or whatever it is people think I am saying. This all started with me saying that sharing the words and teachings of Jesus rather than dogma and doctrine is a good way of preaching and witnessing. It makes people want to know Jesus. Moreover its just an obvious, no brainer good idea for Christians. Thats it. What I find appalling is that Christians think that equals "works righteousness" and that they would spend a single second denouncing that. It blows my mind how the words, deeds and teachings of Jesus has the same effect on Evangelicals as garlic does on vampires. They go nuts. Its mystifying and sad to me.

Anyway, many saints died for their faith long before the Reformation. Im not a "Reformationist", I'm a disciple of Christ - however lame I may be. And if that makes me an enemy of Reformed Christians, then thats their problem. Thats as straight as I can say it.

 on: September 29, 2014, 12:39:46 PM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by Lone Arranger
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
ML, et all, my question to you is, "Have you raised any dead recently?"  Jesus said greater things than what He did you would do if your really believed.  If we are going to measure if someone is saved or not by actions, let's get to the meat of the matter.  "Raised any dead lately?"

 on: September 29, 2014, 12:02:54 PM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by billbennett
Works have their place. Read Ephesians 2:9. We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God had ordained that we should walk in them.

But they are the outflowing of a grateful heart in response to what Christ has done for us. If one can come into a relationship with Christ by their own efforts, then Christ died in vain.

Mark, based on your background and where you have come through to this point, I don't expect you to understand my passion on these issues.

MBG's position is confusing. Either you believe the great truths of the Reformation, that our forefathers shed their blood defending, or you don't. That's as straight as I can say it.


 on: September 29, 2014, 11:17:13 AM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by morning listener
It's weird man, it doesn't matter what one actually says (including Jesus), all people hear is "works".
Too bad God didn't smash, crush and pierce Jesus somewhere in the Arctic or space so we wouldn't have to actually deal with Him and just send Paul with 3 or 4 sentences on a tablet. Because thats essentially the religion Christianity has become.

 on: September 29, 2014, 11:02:00 AM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by mybigGod
This kind of two line mindset makes us all impersonal counselors rather than spiritual high priest. You see the devil is the details. And the details are not classroom principles that we plug in and out comes maturity. No the details are understood as we begin to think correctly and we apply the gospel in all of our lives. Old ways of thinking do not just disappear through suffering. Actually all the counselors just add to the suffering.

But we are high priest of the Most High God. We are people who reason from the position that what another person goes through we must take their place so that we understand. lol Now the world is full of two line reasoning but there are seldom translates into true substitution. And this is exactly what Christ did. He delivered Himself so that we are delivered. The true change in the world does not come from these half baked counseling interactions but through being delivered on behalf of the other guy. lol  

This is why when I hear of suffering it is more than just trying to console someone. Its for me pure hatred because the person is somehow inhibited by Satan. I never take half measures... I want to cut the hole boil off. And this is what cursing is about. Its hating something that is destructive. Its hateful questions to God on behalf of the one who is suffering. Its pleading for God to deliver the sufferer. And its seeing the suffering as a abuse that cannot be tolerated. This cursing is becoming a real mediator. If I dont see that we are all delivered then im gonna plead our case. Who cares if I have the rite counsel .. the help of man is worthless... i pronounce it worthless.

 on: September 29, 2014, 11:01:08 AM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by billbennett
Ephesians 2:8-9 [For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.]

All these Lordship salvation types fluffing up their peacock feathers, thinking they can add something to the finished work of Christ. What part of grace do you not understand? Grace = unmerited favor. You did not earn it, you cannot work for it, you cannot pay it back. It is a free gift.

Reducing salvation to a clear division between works and faith?Huh?

Romans 4:5 [But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.]

Bottom line question: Are you trusting in your own righteousness which is by the law, or the righteousness of God which comes by faith? You just cannot have it both ways.

End of Rant


 on: September 29, 2014, 10:37:11 AM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by mybigGod
We leave a big vacuum in our lives when we reduce salvation to a clear division between works and faith. So these two liners look at the christian life from two perspectives. The first is from the grace perspective... what God does in your life. The second is from the works perspective ...what you do to match what God does. You will find as I have that this leads to dealing with trials as if they were the painful gifts of a distant God. I mean if your gonna become holy then their idea is to focus on what you do to match what God does. Thats the inevitable outcome of believing that on the one hand grace takes care of sin but on the other hand do not take grace for granted. lol So all of our trials really come from God to make us realize that grace cost something. lol

But is God responsible for bringing evil into our lives? Isnt Satan the guy who ask God to test us? Why would we cause ourselves turmoil (you will end with anxiety if you embrace two line) by saying that God has direct responsibility to bring us trials? So it gets all my christian brothers off the hook because in saying that God brought the trial it is a mystery and its good so let the guy stew in the misery. Look Ive not a novice at this experience stuff. You know this is exactly what it comes to.

But if Satan brings the trial by Gods allowance then it forces us to think that if not for God holding Satan back there go I. Instead of seeing the trial as a good thing we see it as an evil that has befallen our brother. I mean if we believe that on the side of sanctification it is necessary for God to break some arms then our counsel is this is a good thing for you.

But see the God side of this goes beyond just one line. It over sees the second practical line. So the bible teaches that both of these supposed sides are for the purpose of our personal deliverance.   If we say that God delivers us through the destructive trials then we are saying that Gods purpose is to do us harm. Or as two line has insinuated that God does evil to us so that good may come of it. The christian life is experienced like the movie the Saw.  lol

But if we are suffering under a trial then there are only two states that we can dwell in. There is hate or love. Now if love is hate turned good for our growth then love and hate are redefined. This is the problem with embracing a contradiction. Good becomes evil and evil becomes good. This sort of reasoning infects all their presuppositions about the clarity of doctrine.

 on: September 29, 2014, 10:00:24 AM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by morning listener
I could be wrong but what I believe makes this "Lordship" thing difficult to warm up to is the emphasis on sin. Not surprisingly I agree with JMac that ones theological orientation either turns one toward discipleship - a focus on the actual person of Jesus, what He taught, what He wanted, what He did and so on, or towards "assent" - the legitimacy and "contents" if you will, of ones "salvation" being determined by the correct set of beliefs. I also, (and I hate to admit it actually) agree with him that under the current theological culture there are a lot of people, possibly a majority, who are deluding themselves. Imo of course.

For example, all this talk of "Jesus living within" is, imo, smoke and mirrors. Jesus may be "living within" someone - it's not my place to say - but I think it's fairly safe to say that if He were, then the host-person would be more like Him. If I was taken over by the spirit of Willis for example, I would likely be less like me and show more Willis. This imo is clearly not the case with people who claim to have Jesus living within them. But to leave it at that is just dark. It is here where discipleship enters the scene. If Jesus is your lord or master you WANT to learn from Him, take his instruction and example to heart - hang on His every word. It's not important that one masters it themselves - Jesus wont reject them because they stumble and fumble. But if they scoff at and run from and mischaracterize Him and what He stood for and did and taught, then just saying they follow Him is a sign of delusion or confusion at best, and dishonesty at worst. They are like the handlers and hangers-on that attach themselves to celebrities and saints, while undermining them and bilking the fans and faithful.  

BUT, this imo, goes WAY beyond mere sin. Sin in its usual parlance speaks of flaws, errors, compulsions or whatever - negative sh!t. But Jesus didnt just walk around "not sinning". He proclaimed, He loved, He demonstrated, He challenged, He was Honest, He inspired, He rejuvinated etc - all positive - fruit. So to turn from sinning, imo, is not mere abstinence. The extremes He pointed to - taking out your eye, turning the other cheek etc speak to a radical change of heart - wherein this kind of thing actually makes sense, and resonates and inspires aspiration, however unattainable it may be. You dont go "f*ck that noise, I can't change, so I don't even want to hear it".

One can believe in the sovereignty of Yahweh and theologize till the cows come home, but if one is a disciple of Jesus - and He is their Lord - not just THE Lord then they don't spend their life trying to avoid Him while claiming His glory for their own.

In my opinion.

 on: September 29, 2014, 09:30:58 AM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by Lone Arranger
The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience...
Okay, let's talk turkey.  What does the above mean?  The average person would go to the law to see if he was keeping it, and call obeying the law to be being submissively obedient to Christ.  What do you think it means to follow him in submissive obedience?  I'm thinking most would think it would be not sinning, and how could we know that except by the measure of the law?  And yet the scriptures teach, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ," Rom 7:4/Gal 2:29.  So with us dead to the law, what does submissive obedience mean; and how do you know if you are accomplishing it? 

 on: September 29, 2014, 08:23:50 AM 
Started by Lone Arranger - Last post by mybigGod
I feel like ive lived nine lives. I look back on my life and I am amazed at how full it has been. Like Solomon says in Ecclesiastes there is a time for everything. We are always moving into different times in our lives. We are always changing.  These experiences have been like living in separate worlds and being translated from one world to another. lol  The cards that are given to us are changed as we move to another world.

This is the wisdom of being able to understand how God is changing the course of our lives. A lot of people want to go back to a time in their lives where they believe they were the most successful. But we are never to entertain regrets. As we go from one image to another the things in this life that we trusted in are being reduced to powerlessness so that we will glory in His power. God does His greatest work in our lives when we do not have enough soldiers to defeat the enemy. He seems to change in the kind of power we experience.

God reduces us because He is doing things that are beyond our personal view. He is always watching over us by allowing and preventing. He has one goal. It is to deliver us from the powers of this world and to translate us into His heavenly abode.

In my experience of meditation over 30 years ..the spiritual experiences bring the past and the present together. When we are saved God implants a new experience in us. It is an eternal experience that is like eating the finest foods at His table. We come to His table through word and Spirit. We only need one thing to survive in this world . We need the word that He has delivered to the saints through all ages. His eternal seed is His spoken word. He speaks new life into our hearts. When we partake of His word we experience eternal life. This eternal life transcends our past and present. Our growth is expressed in our past eternal experiences that break into our present experience that justifies our future purpose. I believe that a mature christian is a person who forgets himself by experiencing all of these eternal conversions of the past. The weight of the eternal experiences far out weigh the personal limitations of old age.

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