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 11 
 on: October 20, 2014, 03:13:48 PM 
Started by Jeffrey - Last post by MaxxAction
 huh

 12 
 on: October 20, 2014, 01:57:04 PM 
Started by Jeffrey - Last post by morning listener
Er.. I like you just fine? Always have?

 13 
 on: October 20, 2014, 12:53:22 PM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by Jeffrey
Jeffrey,

My intent wasnt to attack or insult or falsely accuse. This is honestly my recollection of a strong tendency of yours over the years. I really didnt think you would find it controversial. If you say it's not true, fair enough.
We all have as Eric put it, our "fallback positions". I thought this was yours.
No. Its not my fall back. I am simply not against the possibility that there are such things as healthy churches. Nor do I find the concept of some of the more traditional aspects of churches to be totally at odds with the scriptures.
But I do see and experience many of their faults.
I think, as I said, if I don't spend all my time railing against them, or at the least constantly writing posts saying the whole model of community they use is completely illegitimate, it seems to be assumed I am all on board with them and whatever they do. You simply won't find actual posts from me saying those things.
Part of the problem or disconnect between me and some others in a forum like this lies in how I relate to these issues in my personal life. I am quite independent and am not affected much by what others do and say. Except for my wife and children and maybe sometimes my Mom. So the odd disagreeable things don't bug me much. I don't lose sleep over them and go about my business.

Well, you and I haven't argued/debated much for the past several years (we did quite a bit in the "old days"), and I have never assumed, stated or summarized your beliefs as anything in particular, let alone as denying all problems in the church or being the poster child for all things "IC".
I do have clear recollections of you consistently countering RR's and Max's views with your own experience of church and quite often saying "I don't see much of that going on..". Maybe not in the recent past but often enough over the years that it became predictable. To be honest though I don't feel like going through years of posts to make a strong case. I don't care enough, and just thought you were aware of it.
But none of us are really above these fallback positions. For example, these days I have a bug up my as.s about Paul - to the point where even when I don't set out to, my posts somehow make their way back to him (I have pretty much stumbled into seeing Paul, directly or indirectly, as the origin of virtually all of Christianity's ills).
 It just seems your posts target RR and Max far more often than others, but again, I could be wrong.
There is no doubt about it, Eric, Jeff and I can grate each other a bit. Or I should say I can grate them.
I have tended to not like generalities much. I do this at work. When someone says something is "always" or implies it in a way, I tend to counter with the exception. Maybe its a sign of some deep psychological problems!

 14 
 on: October 20, 2014, 12:47:14 PM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by morning listener
Jeffrey,

My intent wasnt to attack or insult or falsely accuse. This is honestly my recollection of a strong tendency of yours over the years. I really didnt think you would find it controversial. If you say it's not true, fair enough.
We all have as Eric put it, our "fallback positions". I thought this was yours.
No. Its not my fall back. I am simply not against the possibility that there are such things as healthy churches. Nor do I find the concept of some of the more traditional aspects of churches to be totally at odds with the scriptures.
But I do see and experience many of their faults.
I think, as I said, if I don't spend all my time railing against them, or at the least constantly writing posts saying the whole model of community they use is completely illegitimate, it seems to be assumed I am all on board with them and whatever they do. You simply won't find actual posts from me saying those things.
Part of the problem or disconnect between me and some others in a forum like this lies in how I relate to these issues in my personal life. I am quite independent and am not affected much by what others do and say. Except for my wife and children and maybe sometimes my Mom. So the odd disagreeable things don't bug me much. I don't lose sleep over them and go about my business.

Well, you and I haven't argued/debated much for the past several years (we did quite a bit in the "old days"), and I have never assumed, stated or summarized your beliefs as anything in particular, let alone as denying all problems in the church or being the poster child for all things "IC".
I do have clear recollections of you consistently countering RR's and Max's views with your own experience of church and quite often saying "I have never encountered that... or I don't see much of that going on..". Maybe not in the recent past but often enough over the years that it became predictable. To be honest though I don't feel like going through years of posts to make a strong case. I don't care enough, and just thought you were aware of it.
But none of us are really above these fallback positions. For example, these days I have a bug up my as.s about Paul - to the point where even when I don't set out to, my posts somehow make their way back to him (I appear to have pretty much stumbled into seeing Paul, directly or indirectly, as the origin of virtually all of Christianity's ills).
 It just seems your posts target RR and Max far more often than others, but again, I could be wrong.

 15 
 on: October 20, 2014, 12:38:10 PM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by Jeffrey
Jeffrey,

My intent wasnt to attack or insult or falsely accuse. This is honestly my recollection of a strong tendency of yours over the years. I really didnt think you would find it controversial. If you say it's not true, fair enough.
We all have as Eric put it, our "fallback positions". I thought this was yours.
No. Its not my fall back. I am simply not against the possibility that there are such things as healthy churches. Nor do I find the concept of some of the more traditional aspects of churches to be totally at odds with the scriptures.
But I do see and experience many of their faults.
I think, as I said, if I don't spend all my time railing against them, or at the least constantly writing posts saying the whole model of community they use is completely illegitimate, it seems to be assumed I am all on board with them and whatever they do. You simply won't find actual posts from me saying those things.
Part of the problem or disconnect between me and some others in a forum like this lies in how I relate to these issues in my personal life. I am quite independent and am not affected much by what others do and say. Except for my wife and children and maybe sometimes my Mom. So the odd disagreeable things don't bug me much. I don't lose sleep over them and go about my business.

 16 
 on: October 20, 2014, 12:32:08 PM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by morning listener
Jeffrey,

My intent wasnt to attack or insult or falsely accuse. This is honestly my recollection of a strong tendency of yours over the years. I really didnt think you would find it controversial. If you say it's not true, fair enough.
We all have as Eric put it, our "fallback positions". I thought this was yours.

 17 
 on: October 20, 2014, 12:32:06 PM 
Started by Jeffrey - Last post by Jeffrey
Go for it!

 18 
 on: October 20, 2014, 11:25:22 AM 
Started by savedbygrace - Last post by savedbygrace
If God punishes any for sin, exercises His Vindictive wrath upon, any for whom Christ died, then God is charged with injustice and acting unjustly, for exercising Divine Wrath upon those that Christ, by His death for them, delivered them from God's Wrath 1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

He would be Unjust because He would be exercising Divine Vengeance upon persons to whom He could not justly lay any charge against Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

If Christ died for us, that Justified Us, and such, even God cannot lay any charge against Justly, because He layed the charges of theirs upon Christ who died because of them !

Now if God cannot and does not Lay any charges against them, they are to be considered before Him faultless, Blameless and innocent of any fault against His Holy Law.

Again the reason for this is because all the sins and faults and transgressions of theirs, He hath already by imputation, transferred and layed the guilt of and penalty of Upon Christ, and so He died, and in Him satisfied all His Law and Justice against their sins, and so they stand before Him as Innocent of any sins, as though they never sinned, and so it would be unjust of God to punish them for anything, it would be an abomination of His Righteous Government , in fact He would be guilty of doing the very thing He condemns and so would be Hypocritical Prov 17:15

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.1418

 19 
 on: October 20, 2014, 11:19:58 AM 
Started by CPB - Last post by Jeffrey
I am currrently reading "The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano". Its the story of an African captured into slavery in about 1755 who had many adventures, had a great intelligence, became educated and ultimately an important part of the effort to end slavery in the British Empire. There were several editions, the last and most complete was 1794, the edition I am reading.
Good insight, and of course an eyeopener into a world we can mostly only fathom at.
If you have seen the movie "Amazing Grace" on the effort by William Wilberforce to end the slave trade, this is the African who is in the movie, showing Wiberforce a slave ship for instance, and signing his narrative in another scene, and other scenes.

 20 
 on: October 20, 2014, 07:53:21 AM 
Started by BFDD - Last post by Jeffrey
Perhaps this is the post?

"I remember a piece of writing by Darin Hufford where he asserted that the bible is unnecessary because as he says the vast majority of the masses had none until after the printing press made them available, and they did just fine.
That's either a lie or just a statement made in ignorance, or a statement made knowingly in contradiction of the facts. People who were ignorant of what the scriptures said, who did not have some significant access were held in ignorance. They could be made victims of charlatans, false teachers, stuck in works, etc.
Of course that can happen when people who do have the scriptures do not avail themselves of what they say regarding grace and do not take ownership or their own individual accountability to guard that.

But I think the truth clearly is that it would be worse to make little to no reference to the bible. To simply say we will follow Christ, is great. What that means requires something beyond what would in reality be as influenced by our feelings and our value system as the leading of the Holy Spirit."

I stand by that statement until convinced otherwise. I get the concept. Its sounds great to say "we can follow Christ". The Holy Spirit will just lead us, be active in us and we will become more Christ like, and see things from His perspective.
On the one hand I think that it IS possible for the Holy Spirit to do that. But I think He chooses to use the scriptures as a very important means. I think people are very capable, even those who are His, of coming up with ideas that really are not of God, based on what they feel is right and is not something given to them by God through the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that is a completely indefensible idea or "out there" whacky. Anyone who cares to disagree will not get too much heat from me. Its okay.

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