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1  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Eternal torture appears dead at last on: September 29, 2014, 08:00:20 PM

Next i would like to return to John Stott's discussion from post 51 above.  Here's a lead-in:

Stott:  "Do I hold it (the doctrine of eternal torture), however? Well, emotionally, I find the concept intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterizing their feelings or cracking under the strain. But our emotions are a fluctuating, unreliable guide to truth and must not be exalted to the place of supreme authority in determining it.

"As a committed Evangelical, my question must be—and it—not what does my heart tell me, but what does God's word say? And in order to answer this question, we need to survey the biblical material afresh and to open our minds (not just our hearts) to the possibility that Scripture points in the direction of annihilation, and that 'eternal conscious torment' is a tradition which has to yield to the supreme authority of Scripture.

"There are four arguments; they relate to language, imagery, justice and universalism."

So let's take a look at these four, starting with language.


Stott:  "The vocabulary of 'destruction' is often used in relation to the final state of perdition. The commonest Greek words are the verb apollumi (to destroy) and the noun apòleia (destruction). When the verb is active and transitive, 'destroy' means 'kill', as when Herod wanted to murder the baby Jesus and the Jewish leaders later plotted to have him executed (Mt 2:13, 12:14, 27:4).

"Then Jesus himself told us not to be afraid of those who kill the body and cannot kill the soul. 'Rather,' he continued, 'be afraid of the One [God] who can destroy both soul and body in hell' (Mt 10:28); cf. Jas 4:12). If to kill is to deprive the body of life, hell would seem to be the deprivation of both physical and spiritual life, that is, an extinction of being. When the verb is in the middle, and intransitive, it means to be destroyed and so to 'perish', whether physically of hunger or snakebite (Lk 15:17; 1 Cor. 10:9) or eternally in hell (e.g. Jn 3:16, 10:28, 17:12; Rom. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:18; 2 Pet. 3:9).

"If believers are hoi sōzomenoi (those who are being saved), unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). The phrase occurs in 1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor. 2:15, 4:3; and in 2 Thess. 2:10. Jesus is also recorded in the Sermon on the Mount as contrasting the 'narrow…road that leads to life' with the 'broad…road that leads to destruction' (Mt 7:13; cf. also Rom. 9:22; Phil. 1:28, 3:19; Heb 10:39; 2 Pet. 3:7; Rev 17:8, 11; the word used in 1 Thess. 5:3 and 2 Thess. 1:9 is olethros, which also means 'ruin' or 'destruction').

"It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; and, as you put it, it is 'difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing'. It cannot, I think, be replied that it is impossible to destroy human beings because they are immortal, for immortality—and therefore indestructibility—of the soul is a Greek not a biblical concept.

"According to Scripture only God possesses immortality in himself (1 Tim. 1:17, 6:16); he reveals and gives it to us through the gospel (2 Tim. 1:10). And by the way, 'annihilation' is not quite the same as 'conditional immortality'. According to the latter, nobody survives death except those to whom God gives life (they are therefore immortal by grace, not be nature), whereas according to the former, everybody survives death and will even be resurrected, but the impertinent will finally be destroyed."

to be continued
2  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Some errors in the beloved KJV on: September 29, 2014, 07:51:16 PM

Howdy, maka.  I can't remember you ever answering the points below.

Please forgive me if i am wrong about that -- i'd like to be wrong.

I see you have been busy, bro' mak', at copying and pasting.  But i don't see that you have made any real attempt to answer this beginning list of errors in the beloved KJV.  Please forgive me if i am wrong about that.

Here is the current state of the list of probable errors in the 1611 KJV.

1.  The KJV used the word "Easter" when it should have used the word "Passover" in Acts 12:4.  (All other translations have corrected this error.)

2.  The KJV used the word "kill" when the word "murder" would have been more correct -- for example, in the Commandment prohibiting it.

3.  The Greek word meaning "immersion" was changed to "baptism" in several places in the KJV.

4.  The Greek word meaning "assembly" was consistently changed to a different Greek word meaning "pertaining to the Lord" in the KJV, which then morphed into our "church".  

5.  The Greek word meaning (Holy) "Spirit" was translated as (Holy) "Ghost" 90 times by the KJV translators, but they switched to "Holy Spirit" 7 times where the same Greek word occurred in the NT.  All other versions are consistent in their translation of the word as Spirit.

6.  In Isaiah 45:7, the KJV says that God "creates evil", which is untrue by our current definition of "evil".  Most newer translations translate the word correctly as God "creates calamity / disaster".

7.  In many places the KJV incorrectly translated the specific place names "Sheol, Gehenna and Tartarus" as "hell", but it did so inconsistently.  Many more modern versions maintain the original nouns since they have primary meanings different from the idea of a place of unending torture (which came into the Church after the 2nd Century).

8.  Though not really "errors" in the KJV necessarily, it is good to be aware that over 700 english words in the KJV have changed in meaning in the last 400 years.  They can cause misunderstandings which will have to be cleared up later.  It may be better to use an updated version of the KJV which updates those words which have changed over time, while retaining as much as possible of the grandeur of the language of the KJV -- or else have a dictionary handy like the one at:

[ ]

3  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Can't think of a clever title for this thread on: September 28, 2014, 03:55:22 PM

I don't care for the label "Lordship Salvation", though i agree that salvation can only be based on receiving Jesus as the Lord that He is.

The real difference between a Believer and an unbeliever or wannabe-someday-believer, is whether or not Jesus Christ lives in them at their request.

Because from that surrender to His love there will come repentance (sometimes quickly, sometimes more slowly), in fact the desire for repenting (a change of mind, attitude, behavior, toward dependence on God) is an integral part of that surrender.

Because He begins to educate us in His written Word.

Because He begins to show forth the "fruit of the Spirit" which can only come from Him.

And because the Believer will frequently be amazed and overwhelmed by the patience, perseverance, forgiveness, and compassion which He shows us when we have His Life in our own.

Only He can make "Believism" easy, (not we ourselves), and that is one of His Promises to us.

Matthew 11:27-30  Amplified
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy-laden and overburdened, and I will cause you to rest. [I will ease and relieve and refresh your souls.]

"Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am gentle (meek) and humble (lowly) in heart, and you will find rest (relief and ease and refreshment and recreation and blessed quiet) for your souls.

"For My yoke is wholesome (useful, good—not harsh, hard, sharp, or pressing, but comfortable, gracious, and pleasant), and My burden is light and easy to be borne."
4  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Embracing Atheism Could Save the Church? on: September 28, 2014, 03:29:59 PM

That was a great testimony. Like you I do believe the OT accounts were real incidents, because I believe God's word to be true. And although science is filling in some of the gaps in our understanding of how these things could have occurred, they will probably always have to be taken by faith.

What I don't want to do with unbelievers is cloud the water with secondary issues. There are believers who are walking with Jesus today who do not accept the Genesis account of creation. Yet they believe that He is the Son of God who came to this earth and died for their sins. So they are my brothers/sisters in Christ.


Very true, Bill.  What i believe we are also called to do is to uplift His Word as the only reliable guide, the actual inspired writings of God Himself to all mankind.  As soon as we start denying the Genesis account because humanistic/atheistic scientists can't conceive of an all-powerful Supreme Being Who created it all rapidly, then we are also saying that we put science above the Spirit Who inspired the Bible.  

Yet science, in general, is based on the approach of trying to explain everything without any reference to God, and tries to give the impression that all things can be explained by "natural processes" and random chance.  (They forget that "chance" has no power to create at all, and that natural processes don't create themselves from nothing.)

It is my experience that those who are truly "born-again, from above, in Christ" will be drawn toward closer and closer acceptance of His Word to us, and less hypnotized by the latest science-oriented fad concepts.  The history of science reveals that in every period, the best thinking of human beings has been proven wrong, yet many (including me once) try to hang onto the idea that "science has just about explained it all now" so who needs any "god".

So for Believers, i like to challenge them with the idea that our Creator, infinite in power, ability and wisdom, could have designed the entire universe (including the location in space and size of every particle and groups of particles) in His "Mind" before creating anything, and then materialized it in phases which He could have done in nanoseconds, but choose to drag the materialization process out into 6 days (perhaps in order to establish the 7 day week which has persisted throughout history).

Thus, the "Big Bang" could well have taken place, (in His Planning, before there was time), and the expansion of the new universe didn't take billions of years, but being before time it took no time, until the Creation was manifested in our 4D (plus more dimensions) perceptual world.

The interesting thing about this concept is that it is just as provable as the theory of godless evolution.  But we have been trained as a world-culture to be blinded to that possibility, and only accept what we think our senses tell us.  And we forget that the present theories of origin are based on assumptions (like the constancy of basic physical factors and forces) which could well have varied considerably in the distant past.

For many thousands of people, whom i choose to see as friends, as well as myself, it is the Spirit working through the Scripture which "set them free" from spiritual bondage, not the best science has to offer.  The proof is available to those who will see.
5  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Free sins vs our part. on: September 28, 2014, 03:08:47 PM
Yes its a narrow way but the grace is endless. I seldom hear how grace is narrow because our dwelling in grace prevents us from being destroyed by dread and gives us an ability to live in peace. Grace is a gift. It covers all our sin.

We are promised that God will always respond to us with grace. He made a covenant with us that He signed in His own blood. He swore to His own hurt that if He was not faithful that He would be cursed. That covenant is the basis of our confidence. It is as narrow as one stream of life.constantly flowing from heaven into our hearts. This metaphor shows the unhindered fellowship we enjoy with God because of His eternal covenant of grace. If God swears to be.faithful the the whole law is our defense that He should perform as He promised.

Christ Jesus is not only the narrowest Way to God, the Door/Gate to Heaven, but He is also the Creator, the Promise-Maker and Promise-Keeper, the Grace-Giver, the Stream of Life, the power of the Covenant and the Law, the Peace that surpasses all understanding.  And a whole lot more, of course....

Do i hear some "praise-chorus music" floating around here about now?    cheesy
6  Forums / Main Forum / Re: New Here? Read This First! on: September 28, 2014, 03:02:23 PM

Hey there, hooked_on_Christ, i hope we didn't scare you away.  Your user name is very interesting, and as far as i am concerned, it(He) is the central, core Answer to all problems with sin addictions of all kinds.

So, please feel free to share what's on your heart/mind/soul.   Wink
7  Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: For worc on: September 25, 2014, 08:22:38 PM

Me too.  And i am grateful that i have been blessed with the willingness, and spiritual reminders, to pray for you daily, worc.  As far as i can tell, you're a very special God-kid.  Well, OK, i guess we all are, but some stand out in my heart-mind more than others.

I think i better shut up now...   cheesy  Embarrassed
8  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Eternal torture appears dead at last on: September 25, 2014, 08:06:34 PM

From a few posts ago, comes this quote from John Stott:

"As a committed Evangelical, my question must be— and it is —not what does my heart tell me, but what does God's word say? And in order to answer this question, we need to survey the biblical material afresh and to open our minds (not just our hearts) to the possibility that Scripture points in the direction of annihilation, and that 'eternal conscious torment' is a tradition which has to yield to the supreme authority of Scripture. There are four arguments; they relate to language, imagery, justice and universalism."

We will get back to these arguments next, but first i wanted to share a link to another presentation of the subject which looks promising so far, entitled "Hell Know":   (This actually contains a book of 12 chapters)

And, of course, we don't want to loose track of one of my favorite writings regarding conditional immortality which is at:

If you've never read this latter reference, you might give it a try -- it's quality.
9  Forums / Break Room / Re: Three Curtains on: September 25, 2014, 09:08:28 AM

In your post #7 you said that you would switch to both curtains #2 and #3 if the host offered you that opportunity.  Why would you do that?  

Here's post #7:


re:  " Why isn't it true that the probability of curtain 1 is 50% when there are only 2 possibilities?"

If after your initial pick of curtain #1 and before any curtain was opened you were told that you could switch to both curtains #2 AND #3, what would you do?    

Well, the way you worded it, i would switch to "both curtains #2 and #3".  Unless, of course, the rules required selecting only one curtain.   cheesy

I was being humorous.  If curtain #1 was eliminated, and i could choose either curtain 2 or 3, or have the option of choosing both, then i would choose both, since one of them is certain to be the winner.

Sorry, weird joke.  If i had the choice between curtain 1 and curtain 2/curtain 3 combined, and it is not known if curtain 1 is correct, then there is a fifty percent chance that curtain 1 is correct and a fifty percent chance that either 2 or 3 is correct.   rolleyes
10  Forums / Break Room / Re: Time for Judgment on: September 25, 2014, 09:00:20 AM
If I remember correctly, from my ancient history class, this practice of the Assyrian army of impaling their victims was called "calculated frightfulness." They would march toward the next city to be conquered with their impaled victims at the front for their enemies to see as they were approaching. This served as a method of imparting fear into the hearts of the opposing army thus breaking their spirit and will to fight. Once conquered, the men of the defeated army were sifted for those suitable for slave work; the remaining men were added to the line of impaled victims and on to the next city!

That sounds a lot like "ISIL", doesn't it.  But at least they just behead many of their opponents, and only crucify some.  Barbarian progress i suppose.
11  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Embracing Atheism Could Save the Church? on: September 25, 2014, 12:05:50 AM
Thanks RR. I needed that if no one else did.

Engaging in conversation that is meaningful first means you are a good listener. I need to listen and not be shocked when a person has a different perspective than mine. Jesus was a master at that, drawing people into meaningful conversations, and listening to their concerns.

For example, you and I may disagree on the flood and Noah's floating zoo. But what eternal significance is there to that?

Now Adam and Eve, a little different story. This has implications related to original sin, the fall of man, the need for redemption ect. And maybe someday we could discuss that, but not today.

Everyone have a great evening.


I guess what began to work on my overly scientific brain of the past was what Jesus accepted as fact.  He treated the OT stories, including Noah and the Ark, as if they were real incidents rather than just stories made up to teach moral lessons.

And as i began to see His power and ability more clearly, i realized there isn't anything He can't do.  Including creating a complete universe in 6 days, which might look very old to those who reject His account in Genesis.  Plus, He was there all along through history (His-story), and He revealed Himself to specific people in accordance with His infinite intelligence and perfect planning.

What kept me from believing such things wasn't so much having actual proof they were not possible, as much as pride that i knew better than Believers, and i was sure we couldn't trust the Bible.  Yet as my life progressed, after my pride got broken by hitting "bottom", i learned repeatedly that the Scripture was more reliable than my scientific and philosophical training, in many ways (in every way actually).

It wasn't science or philosophy which got me free from the addictions i was trapped in -- it was God working through His Word.  The process was slow, sometimes excruciatingly slow, which functioned to make it more clear in some ways.  And then came the Spirit, verifying the Book as the only dependable guide to knowing Christ, and Him as the only Person worth living and dieing for.

As an atheist i would have (and did) mocked and ridiculed some of the Biblical statements like "the fool says in his heart there is no God" (Psalm 14:1, 53:1) .  And i would have been angry if the following truth were mentioned to me.  But now i see how true it was for myself and those i have known who were caught up tightly in sin addictions, before being broken and turning to Jesus in desperation.

Romans 1:17-19
" it is written, “The just/righteous shall live by faith.”

"For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the Truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them."

Deep down i knew there was a God, but i didn't want any "big guy in the sky" to interfere with my pleasures, especially my sex "fun", so i suppressed that knowledge and denied any possibility of there being a Supreme Being like the Scripture reveals.  I'm sure glad i was shown how wrong i was.  (Thank You, Dad!)
12  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Eternal torture appears dead at last on: September 24, 2014, 12:13:30 PM
What I find suspicious about this topic is that none of the most popular pastors ever agree with this, in fact they say the opposite. At least I never heard them say anything that would even come close to agreeing with this topic.
Has anyone heard someone like Charles Stanley, John Piper, Billy Graham etc. etc. say anything like this?
No...they've never really studied it either,I'd guess,just stayed with tradition./

I would like to see what Stanley, Piper, Graham, would say after reading the outline in the first post above.  They might see something a little differently -- like "eternal punishment" being a one-time punishment, the Second Death, instead of an "on-going punishing".  That changes things considerably. 

[Eternal redemption is a one-time redemption with an eternal effect and consequence.
 Eternal judgment is a one-time judgment with eternal effects and consequences.
 Eternal salvation is a one-time salvation with eternal effects and consequences.
 Eternal condemnation is a one-time condemnation with eternal effects and consequences.
 Eternal punishment is a one-time punishment (final death) with eternal effects and consequences, since there will be no more resurrections after it.]

And the other distortions of tradition regarding eternal torture, (which are all based on the idea of the immortality of every person which is not Scriptural) are seen to be similar misunderstandings.  But it isn't who does or who doesn't believe a particular doctrine that matter, what counts is what does the Word of God say, and that is a complete destruction/consuming in the Lake of Fire.  As Jesus told us (Matthew 10:28), Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) destroys both body and soul, and Isaiah said we will see only dead bodies in the eternal Fire, not living beings that are kept alive to be tortured forever (see Isaiah 66:24).

All we have to do is agree with the Bible, and our doctrines become more true, and the love and justice/fairness of God is revealed more clearly.
13  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Can't think of a clever title for this thread on: September 23, 2014, 08:12:45 PM
I don't think ones stance on sin or any one pet topic/obsession/"bottom line" doctrine will determine the mark of a true Christian. Jesus was a deep, complex guy, who could reach people where they were. And he caused division. People either wanted to squash him or devote themselves to following him. He forgave those who hated him but had no time for lukewarm people or preening religious peacocks.
I sort of think of it like, if he were here among us now, saying and doing what he did, would we drop everything, our beliefs, our doctrines, our pride, our expertise, our self-image, our status, our worldly safety and security and follow him and trust him?

Jesus is here among us now, inside every real Believer, so we can drop everything which exalts us or puts our trust in ourselves, and follow/trust in/depend on Him.  (Easier said than done, but infinitely worthwhile...)
14  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Can't think of a clever title for this thread on: September 23, 2014, 08:06:40 PM
Would you agree or disagree with the following statements regarding a mark of a Christian? Regarding his personal sin: he readily admits his sin and its offense to God, he is grieved over his sin and comes to hate it, he's miserable about it and pleads with God to help him deal with it properly, he's thankful to God for His longsuffering and patience in this matter, and with God's abundant grace, he improves in those problem areas overall. IOW, he's not perfect, but his life in general is a pattern of repentance and growing in grace.

I would agree with it in general, but my own experience is that we do not immediately, upon receiving Christ, hate all of the sin in our lives -- usually just the most pronounced and bothersome ones.  But He patiently and persistently reveals more to us, and helps us hate what those sins do to us and to our relationship with Him.  It takes a while for some of us to recognize and admit and then repent from the more subtle sins, and He works with us through the whole process.

Not perfect, true, in this life, yet perfect now in Christ's sight and in the future He has planned for us. 

Philippians 3:12  Paul:
"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me."
15  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: So what about pot? on: September 22, 2014, 11:34:04 PM

I was the SAME way!

This sounds odd w/out the visual--Sorry--Oh LOOKS ODD!

In Narc training we have graphs-EVERYTHING is a stat or graph EWW!

Anyway the graph begins with legal substances-Continues-If the user continues the graph continues--You get the picture... Now the graph of a true junkie is full-Beginning with the legal, including the current topic-Then add and add--Few Junkies say-Oh I do(--------) But I'd NEVER touch that stuff!---You get what I'm cheaply generalizing....

You see the Gateway on Junkies cleanly-But on others the Gateway stops----But what is the true spiritual damage? The damage to the culture or society is just the visible---The true damage is occurring in spirit to ones spirit---

Thanks Could use the prayers--As I'm NOT 100% but I really feel that even tho my contribution is like trying to drain the ocean with a kids bucket--I think my contribution and experience is needed--I am Not going to abandon ship---It EZ when you feel you have been given the responsibility from the Lord--That also comes with extreme vigilance to do the RIGHT THING ALWAYS--But what a great feeling.......Peace Brother....Thanks for considering me---THANKS is weak to the actual emotions I feel! 

I got a little involved in other topics and didn't respond right away.  But i want you to know that a minor miracle has occurred.  Self-centered as i am, i still got reminded, daily, to pray for you.  There must be something special coming up in your future.

Glad you aren't going to "abandon ship".  Yeah, i agree you/we have a responsibility from the Giver of "response-abilities".  Like considering each other more than ourselves.

Philippians 2:2-4  Amplified
"Fill up and complete my joy by living in harmony and being of the same mind and one in purpose, having the same love, being in full accord and of one harmonious mind and intention.

"Do nothing from factional motives [through contentiousness, strife, selfishness, or for unworthy ends] or prompted by conceit and empty arrogance. Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself [thinking more highly of one another than you do of yourselves].

"Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not [merely] his own interests, but also each for the interests of others."

I may be but a bungling-babe when it comes to actually practicing this, but i'm willing to grow along these spiritual lines into a grace-guy -- i know you are too.
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