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1  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Exposing false teaching about the atonement on: June 26, 2015, 12:11:09 PM
Did Christ die only for the elect?  The scriptures say otherwise.  Christ died for all men.
Quote
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoeverbelieves in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
Quote
John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)
Quote
Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Quote
2 Cor 5:15
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15)
Quote
1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:10)
Quote
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)
Quote
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Quote
1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)


So then, let's look at just the key phrases here, and see if Christ's death on the Cross was sufficient for the salvation of all mankind, or just the elect only.  (In reverse order using the Scriptures listed above.)


.....He died for sins, once for all...,,,,
.....He does not wish for any of us to perish, but wants all to come to repentance......
.....His grace appeared bringing salvation to all men......
.....He is the Savior of all men, especially we who believe......
.....He died for all......
.....He died to sin for all......
.....He draws all men to Himself......
.....Whoever believes in Him will not perish.....


It seems clear that He died for all mankind, yet only those who receive His unending Life will live eternally.  He does not desire anyone to perish, yet permits those who choose to continue their rebellion until their death to be destroyed in the End, since that will be the deepest desire of their hearts/minds/souls at the Judgment.

It appears that sbg has the correct title for this topic, but this shows him to be the one whose teaching is contradicting the Word of God.
2  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Exposing false teaching about the atonement on: June 24, 2015, 02:25:19 PM
Did Christ die only for the elect?  The scriptures say otherwise.  Christ died for all men.


Quote
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoeverbelieves in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Quote
John 12:32
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)

Quote
Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Quote
2 Cor 5:15
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15)

Quote
1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:10)

Quote
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

Quote
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Quote
1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)



Thanks for repeating the relevant Scriptures again, beacon2.  It appears sbg has considerable spiritual pride, which i can only recognize by having even more.  Us proud folk need lots of repetition of the actual Word to correct our somewhat deviant thinking.

And hi, sbg, brother in Christ.  We have so much in common, perhaps the Lord will help us act more like true brothers, in Him. 
3  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ our Life, When ? on: June 24, 2015, 02:09:54 PM

I would be glad to review your points back to you if you would be willing to review my points back to me, so i can be sure you understand and so i can focus on any misunderstanding you may have of what i have responded to your points.

Sorry, that's a bit wordy.  Just tell me what i said and i will tell you what you said, OK?

So you just confirmed that you dont want to do as i asked, suit yourself, but you shall reap what you sow !

Then you are sowing evasion, since you evade any points that may disagree with your pronouncements by trying to get people to repeat your points.  Please try to actually look at the Scripture and comments offered in response to your posts and you will breed less "evasion" as you prefer to see it.  Maybe you are missing something, but you won't know until you actually look at what is presented to you.

Yes, i know you will probably just take the easy way out, and make the evasion charge again, but at least i tried to communicate with you.  Could you consider doing the same?

Christ is the Source of life for all people, Believers and unbelievers alike.  But we must be "born again" of His Spirit to be His; we need His unending Life.  Yes we were foreknown to accept Him, yes we are predestined to be His by that same foreknowledge.  Yet we don't actually have unending Life until we receive Him.


Romans 8:8-10  Amplified
"So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.

"But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].

"But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you]."


And He does not come into us until He is invited by us to come in (though even our invitation is initiated and assisted by Him - - He doesn't force Himself upon us against our will).
4  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Sons before believers ! on: June 24, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
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I think sbg is unwilling to actually look at any Scripture which doesn't fit his theology.  

Thus the charge of "evasion".  Thus the insistence upon people reviewing and repeating his points before he will respond to their counter-points.

Or am i wrong about that sbg?  I would like to be.

Both Jeff and i have brought up that no one has the right to be Sons of God unless they receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.  The verse seems clear enough, but let's look at it in the Amplified version to see any possible "shades of meaning" in the greek:


John 1:11-13
"He came to that which belonged to Him [to His own—His domain, creation, things, world], and they who were His own did not receive Him and did not welcome Him.

"But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name—who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]"

This verse seems to be clear in stating that people do not have the authority/power/privilege/right to become the children of God unless they believe in/adhere to/trust in/rely on His name/nature. Which doesn't mean, of course, that God didn't foreknow which of us would become His adopted children -- He foreknew us, yet our actual, in this universe, becoming His Sons came as we received Christ, not before.


Evasion !


How long will you, yourself,  evade the point being made here?   huh

You say "evasion".  I say evasion.  Now would you respond to the point that we have to receive the right/privilege to become the Sons of God by receiving Christ?  We are not automatically Sons by the verse quoted above, we have to be "adopted".
5  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Faith is a Good Work we do after being created in Christ ! on: June 22, 2015, 12:56:28 PM
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Yes, i have.

Have you considered that the first "work" that is done in the process of receiving the Gift of faith, is a releasing of our suppression / repression of the Truth, Who is seeking to save us?


Romans 1:18  Amplified
"For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the Truth and make it inoperative."


Ultimately, what condemns a person to final destruction is this persistent rejection of Christ / Truth.  And salvation doesn't happen until, with God's full assistance, a person lets go of their rebellion and accepts the unending Life given to us so freely, if we will but receive it.
6  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Sons before believers ! on: June 22, 2015, 12:47:05 PM
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I think sbg is unwilling to actually look at any Scripture which doesn't fit his theology.  

Thus the charge of "evasion".  Thus the insistence upon people reviewing and repeating his points before he will respond to their counter-points.

Or am i wrong about that sbg?  I would like to be.

Both Jeff and i have brought up that no one has the right to be Sons of God unless they receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.  The verse seems clear enough, but let's look at it in the Amplified version to see any possible "shades of meaning" in the greek:


John 1:11-13
"He came to that which belonged to Him [to His own—His domain, creation, things, world], and they who were His own did not receive Him and did not welcome Him.

"But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name—who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]"

This verse seems to be clear in stating that people do not have the authority/power/privilege/right to become the children of God unless they believe in/adhere to/trust in/rely on His name/nature. Which doesn't mean, of course, that God didn't foreknow which of us would become His adopted children -- He foreknew us, yet our actual, in this universe, becoming His Sons came as we received Christ, not before.


Evasion !


How long will you, yourself,  evade the point being made here?   huh
7  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Who are the All Here Christ was delivered up for ? on: June 22, 2015, 12:43:12 PM
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kingsk

Quote
Nothing previously said in this topic proves that Christ's death on the Cross was not sufficient for the salvation of the entire world.

Did you read the OP and the other posts following it ?

Can you point out the part which proves that Christ's death on the Cross wasn't sufficient for the salvation of the entire world.  Anyone who repents and receives Christ as the Savior He is can be saved.  Only those who do so, and God foreknows who will come to let go of their repression and rebellion, will receive the Gift which is all-sufficient for the Salvation of every person.

Note again that God "now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17).  Not just "the elect", but all men everywhere.  And He would never command anyone to do anything which is impossible (even with His help).  The lost must choose to suppress His perfect love, continuously, to stay lost.  

Being "saved" is not a work of effort on our part, it is releasing the effort all people exert to keep God out of their lives.  Being lost is the ultimate "work" of mankind, being saved is the ultimate work of Christ in those who can (with His full assistance) become willing to be His.

Evasion !

Note that nothing in the Scriptures you quoted said that Christ's death wasn't sufficient for everyone in the world, if they would come to accept His unending love and Life.  Yes, God foreknew those who would be saved, and He also foreknew who would be lost, since He is not bound by time.

Yet the Cross is totally sufficient for all who will come (with God's assistance) to believe / trust in the Savior.  If all men repented and let go of their suppression of the Truth, all would be saved.  And all can do so, since God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe in His Son.

It is not true that He predestined most of mankind to be lost, in the sense of forces them to reject Christ.  Rather, He makes it possible for all men to repent, if they can become willing, and He provides the faith that saves.  No one is given no opportunity to be saved, and the Sacrifice is all-sufficient, though few will accept the Gift, as He knew from before the Beginning.


Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."


And those who persist in keeping Him out will not dine with Him, forever, but "anyone" may come, if they but give Him entry to their lives.
8  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Eternal torture appears dead at last on: June 21, 2015, 11:37:05 AM
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Oh, this topic got pushed too far down the stack, i think.

There are probably still people who have been taught that the lost will be tortured for an unending, unmerciful period of time because they have immortal bodies of some kind.

Please read section A of the outline, in the first post for this topic, to see more clearly that the lost are never said in Scripture to be made immortal.  Only Jesus Christ has immortality at the present, and only Believers are to be given immortality at their resurrection.  The lost will remain mortal, and die the Second Death, upon their resurrection, the final death which is forever, and only their dead bodies will be seen in the everlasting Lake of Fire ("Gehenna" is the term Jesus used).

It would be interesting and helpful to see the approach sbg takes to this topic.  (But you are probably not reading this invitation....)
9  Forums / Main Forum / Re: The Bible versus rome on: June 20, 2015, 11:29:14 AM

It comes to mind that there are many millions of roman catholics, some of whom have Jesus Christ living in them, permanently, as their Savior and Life.  Yet there are many who do not, just as there are many protestant church-goers who "believe" in their minds, but don't trust in/depend on Him to save them, choosing instead to trust in their own "works" for salvation.

We are to love them, and reach out to them with the Gospel of reconciliation, just as we would to believers in any other system of works-righteousness.  How do you, personally, do that while helping them see the extreme contrast between what they are taught by catholicism compared to what the Bible really says?



The roman catholic church has been striving for a "counter-reformation" since the days of Martin Luther and John Calvin.  And current protestant ecumenical movements often attempt to unite with rome by minimizing doctrinal differences between them.  But many of the r.c.c. teachings stand directly opposed to the Bible.

Here are some of those key differences, using the "catechism of the catholic church", 1994, (with source section numbers in parentheses).  Most of the material is taken from "Proclaiming the Gospel" ministries (www.pro-gospel.org) by evangelist Mike Gendron.  I will be adding sections as i develop them.

When we see the true differences between r.c.c. doctrines and the Bible, we will not want to unite with this "other gospel" which contradicts Scripture on all these major points.

+++++++                  Final Authority

Bible: Scripture has final authority over the Church.  2 Tim. 3:16

rcc: the church has authority over Scriptures.  The manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the church...to the pope and to the bishops (100,119).

+++++++                  Salvation - part 1

Bible: man is saved by God's unmerited grace.  Eph. 2:8-9

rcc: man is saved by meriting the graces needed for salvation.  We can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for the attainment of eternal life (2010).


Bible: man is saved for good works.  Eph. 2:10

rcc: man is saved by good works.  In this way they attain their own salvation and cooperate in saving their brothers (1477).

+++++++                  Salvation - part 2

Bible: man is saved for all eternity.  (Eph. 1:13-14)

rcc: man is saved only until the next mortal sin is committed.  Those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell (1055).


Bible: salvation is offered to those outside the Church.  2 Cor. 5:20

rcc: salvation is offered through the church.  Basing itself on Scripture and tradition, the church is necessary for salvation.  Anyone refusing to enter it, or remain in it cannot be saved (846).


Bible: all sins are purified by the Blood of Jesus.  1 John 1:7

rcc: some sins are purified by the fires of purgatory.  They undergo purification in purgatory, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven (1030-31).

+++++++                  Justification

Bible: man is justified once by faith because justification provides a permanent right standing before God and results in glorification.  Romans 8:30, 4:5

rcc: man is justified repeatedly by sacraments and works because he loses the grace of justification each time a mortal sin is committed.  The sacrament of penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification (1446).

+++++++                 Regeneration

Bible: man is regenerated at the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one Body.  1 Cor. 12:13, 2 Thes. 2:13)

rcc: baptism of water is the sacrament of regeneration (1213).  The water of baptism truly signifies our birth into the divine life (694).

+++++++                 Saints and priests

Bible: man becomes a saint when the Spirit baptizes him into the Body of Christ.  Eph. 4:11-12

rcc: man becomes a saint only if the pope canonizes him.  This occurs when he solemnly proclaims that they practiced a heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace (828).


Bible: every Christian is a priest and a member of the royal priesthood.  1 Pet. 2:9

rcc: every man needs a priest for salvation.  Catholic priests guarantee that Christ is acting in the sacraments which are necessary for salvation (1120-29).

Plus,
Bible: Matthew 23:9  Jesus speaking:
"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He Who is in Heaven."


rcc:  catholic priests are usually called "father", the pope is called the "holy father".
10  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: June 20, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
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Back in my "arrogant atheist days", i loved to argue with Christians and show them how ridiculous and irrational their beliefs were.  So, in order to "fine-tune" my arguments, i began to listen to a radio program which i had stumbled upon (Divine accident, of course), and paid close attention to the stupidity i heard coming from the mouth of a "hick from the sticks" named J. Vernon McGee.  Silly accent, bizarre confidence in patently absurd ideas and beliefs, far beneath my vastly superior intellect (he takes a bow to the cheering crowds....).

But as i listened, strangely enough,  rolleyes , he began slowly to make a little sense.  Not much, mind you, just some.  Anyway, i found out over the years of listening to him that he had been healed completely from cancer when he was expected to die soon, and kept on doing "Thru the Bible" as his program was known (or as it is known, since it is still being aired though he "went Home" some time ago).
 
Here is a general biographical statement about his life and ministry ( from hopefaithprayer.com ) :

+++++++

Dr. McGee’s greatest pastorate was at the historic, Church of the Open Door in downtown Los Angeles, where he served from 1949 to 1970. There he began a daily radio broadcast called “High Noon Bible Class” on a single station.

Dr. McGee began teaching Thru the Bible in 1967. After retiring from the pastorate, he set up radio headquarters in Pasadena, and the radio ministry expanded rapidly. Today the program airs on over 400 stations each day in the United States and Canada, is heard in more than 100 languages around the world and is broadcast worldwide via the Internet.

During his last few years, failing health demanded the cancellation of many speaking engagements. This was extremely distressing to him. There was no recurrence of an earlier bout with cancer during this time, only a weakening heart. Back in 1965, after radical surgery, the doctors had given him 6 months to live. The Lord gave him 23 years.

On the morning of December 1, 1988, a few minutes after a visit with the then Associate Director of Thru the Bible, alert and in conversation centered around his concern for the continuance of the radio ministry, Dr. McGee fell asleep in his chair and quietly passed into the presence of his Savior.

+++++++

If you want a detailed "trip through the entire Bible" in 5 years, you can "get on the Bible bus" by downloading his teaching/sermons from ttb.org (for Thru-The-Bible).  You may not agree with all of his theology, but he is guaranteed to make you re-examine and deepen your beliefs, if you listen.
11  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ Married to the Elect before the foundation ! on: June 19, 2015, 02:10:21 PM
kingsk

Quote
And i ask you again, can you look at "the marriage supper of the Lamb", which is yet future, and still maintain that we had to be married to Christ before the foundation of the earth (not just in God's foreknowledge)?

Once again, I guess that means no you wont !

Yes, i would rather that you just held a regular dialogue instead of wanting to "act the part of the professor with his students".  I grant that that could be a misperception of your intention.  

Perhaps you could at least answer the above question?  

"And i ask you again, can you look at "the marriage supper of the Lamb", which is yet future, and still maintain that we had to be married to Christ before the foundation of the earth (not just in God's foreknowledge)?"  

Your previous statements do not explain that point.

Evasion !


Counter-evasion!!!    cool rolleyes Grin
12  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Sons before believers ! on: June 19, 2015, 02:04:36 PM
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I think sbg is unwilling to actually look at any Scripture which doesn't fit his theology.  

Thus the charge of "evasion".  Thus the insistence upon people reviewing and repeating his points before he will respond to their counter-points.

Or am i wrong about that sbg?  I would like to be.

Both Jeff and i have brought up that no one has the right to be Sons of God unless they receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.  The verse seems clear enough, but let's look at it in the Amplified version to see any possible "shades of meaning" in the greek:


John 1:11-13
"He came to that which belonged to Him [to His own—His domain, creation, things, world], and they who were His own did not receive Him and did not welcome Him.

"But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name—who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]"

This verse seems to be clear in stating that people do not have the authority/power/privilege/right to become the children of God unless they believe in/adhere to/trust in/rely on His name/nature. Which doesn't mean, of course, that God didn't foreknow which of us would become His adopted children -- He foreknew us, yet our actual, in this universe, becoming His Sons came as we received Christ, not before.

13  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: June 19, 2015, 01:43:49 PM
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Regarding some post-Biblical healings of fairly well-known "ministers", which led to their ministries, i would like to start with Joni Eareckson Tada.  Hers is not a "standard healing", but a powerful one nevertheless.  I have had the opportunity to be involved in her ministries, and watched her in action.  She makes the phrase "wounded healers" come alive!  Here is some basic info from her website for those who don't know her life story (from joniandfriends.org ) :

=======

In 1967 Joni Eareckson Tada was injured in a diving accident at 17 years old, leaving her in a quadriplegic state with minimal use of her hands. After two years of rehabilitation, Joni re-entered the community with new skills and a fresh determination to help others in similar situations.
 
Joni and Friends began in 1979 at Joni’s house as she and her friends responded to the many questions and needs pouring in from families affected by disability who read Joni’s books or had seen the movie of her life. From the beginning, Joni, her staff, and volunteers devoted their energies to developing Christ-centered programs and services which would help meet the spiritual and practical needs of disabled people and their families, including Family Retreats, the distribution of wheelchairs and Bibles worldwide to people affected by disability, and church training at local and national disability ministry conferences. Joni and Friends continues to reach out around the world to people and families affected by disability with the love of Christ and the practical help they need.

=======

Some healings are not so much physical restorations, as they are acceptance of a disability and bringing God glory in helping others like themselves stop blaming Him and start serving Him, just as they are, until He gives them the perfect body He promises, one Day, to all who trust Him completely.

Joni, denied the full use of her hands and legs, learned to draw (beautifully, and highly detailed) with her mouth.  One of the main things she had left as a quadripelgic was her lungs, so she learned how to sing wonderfully and made several albums.  She has written inspiring books, set up various organizations to assist the "handicapped", and gives retreats to "care-givers" of the handicapped so they can be refreshed.

May we all serve God so well with what we are given to work with....
14  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Who are the All Here Christ was delivered up for ? on: June 18, 2015, 03:58:40 PM
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kingsk

Quote
Nothing previously said in this topic proves that Christ's death on the Cross was not sufficient for the salvation of the entire world.

Did you read the OP and the other posts following it ?

Can you point out the part which proves that Christ's death on the Cross wasn't sufficient for the salvation of the entire world.  Anyone who repents and receives Christ as the Savior He is can be saved.  Only those who do so, and God foreknows who will come to let go of their repression and rebellion, will receive the Gift which is all-sufficient for the Salvation of every person.

Note again that God "now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17).  Not just "the elect", but all men everywhere.  And He would never command anyone to do anything which is impossible (even with His help).  The lost must choose to suppress His perfect love, continuously, to stay lost.  

Being "saved" is not a work of effort on our part, it is releasing the effort all people exert to keep God out of their lives.  Being lost is the ultimate "work" of mankind, being saved is the ultimate work of Christ in those who can (with His full assistance) become willing to be His.
15  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Sons before believers ! on: June 18, 2015, 03:29:35 PM
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The logic here also mishandles the adoption of Believers into the Family of God.

Romans 8:15
"For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by Whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”"

Galatians 4:4-6
"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.  And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”"

We receive the adoption as His Sons at the same time we are given the Spirit, and the manifestation is that we cry out to Him as our perfect Father.

You seem to want to make God's foreknowledge (of those who are His), eliminate the adoption process.  Jesus knows who are to be His sheep long before they respond to the Shepherd, but they are not acting as His sheep until they willingly yield themselves to His authority as ultimate Shepherd.

Our Father knows beforehand who are going to be adopted into the Forever Family before the Creation, yet they are not acting as His adopted Sons until they surrender to His love, and become adopted into Christ.


Romans 12:1
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."


God foreknew, before Creation, who of us could, by His grace in Christ, one day offer themselves as living sacrifices to Him.  However, in our experience we are not actually living sacrifices until we truly sacrifice ourselves to Him.

Note this other facet, that we are not Sons before we are given the right to become one:


John 1:12-13
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His Name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Though we are His Sons in His knowledge-beyond-time, in this universe we are "born again", "adopted into His Family", "made new creations", when we receive Jesus -- we do not have that right until we accept His Gift of Life in Christ (by His grace, through the faith He alone can give, of course)..
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