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1  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Eternal torture appears dead at last on: April 26, 2015, 12:15:05 PM
So going back, temporarily, to the topic of universalism (the idea that everyone gets saved in the End), we saw that we can take any section of the outline in the very first post above, and examine it to try to find any Scripture which clearly states that the lost will be resurrected again, and given new immortal bodies, after their Second Deaths in the eternal fire.  And then, what the Word says is "eternal punishment" (meaning a one-time punishment that has unending consequences and effects), would become a "temporary, eternal punishment" which makes no sense.

I challenge any proponent of universalism to show any Scripture which describes a resurrection of the lost after their complete termination in the Lake of Fire.
2  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 24, 2015, 11:52:01 AM
One of the characteristics of Believers in the Word of God is that they will progressively be able to find things to rejoice about and be grateful for, even in the midst of extreme negative circumstances.  Here's some Scripture that describes a few cases of this:

Paul and Silas were stripped, beaten, thrown in jail, put into stocks, and yet they sang hymns of praise to God.

1 Peter 16:22-26
"Then the multitude rose up together against them; and the magistrates tore off their clothes and commanded them to be beaten with rods.  And when they had laid many stripes on them, they threw them into prison, commanding the jailer to keep them securely.  Having received such a charge, he put them into the inner prison and fastened their feet in the stocks.

"But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.  Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed."

Paul was often writing epistles while a prisoner of Rome, yet he could say, "Rejoice always!" in both Philippians 4:4 and 1 Thessalonians 5:16.  In fact, he said he had learned the secret of being content in all circumstances:

Philippians 4:10-13
"But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at last your care for me has flourished again; though you surely did care, but you lacked opportunity.  Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:
I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.  I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me."

And that last statement is the key: in Christ we can do all things we are called upon by Him to do, in His power and strength.  That can include deprivation, mistreatment, instense suffering, total rejection, etc.  Our contentment and rejoicing are based on what Jesus is to us, and has done/will do for us, when His time has come.

Which is not to say we will have no human emotions and reactions -- we often will -- but as we seek Him in our trials, no matter how distressing and painful, He comforts us and renews us, so that we find joy where unBelievers cannot.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, Who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God."

And we know that He will much more than "make it up to us" one Day, for any suffering we may have to face in this life, which will seem so minor, and temporary, in the light of eternity.

2 Corinthians 4:16-18
"Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal."
3  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 22, 2015, 11:10:58 AM
So what about the "jots and tittles" in Scripture which Jesus mentioned, Matthew 5:17-18?  These may have to do with special markings Moses used, supposedly, to add an initial layer of meaning to the surface meaning of the text.  Let's look at some examples from Lion and Lamb Ministries (especially Monte Judah), which are taken from Hebrew Torah scrolls (Masoretic text), since these types of "jots and tittles" don't show up in any English Bibles -- they simply aren't translated.

There have been several other interpretations, but for our purpose here, a "jot" or "yot" is an extra dot in the text, while a "tittle" is a small extension or "horn" added to a Hebrew letter.  There are roughly 100 "jots and tittles" in the standard Older Testament (which may be seen in a good Hebrew interlinear and/or a "Chumash", which has commentaries also).  

[[There are four types of related features in the Scripture: a) special indentations, as with the verses of the Song of Moses; b) special open gaps in the writing (and the gap is part of the Torah teaching) -- to get you to pause and take note; c) "crowns" or small markings put above certain letters (only 7 letters can have crowns) -- often considered the "tittles" -- part of the "Treasures of the Torah"; d) word pictures and numerical values of the letters of the alphabet (each letter of Hebrew has a number assigned to it and a picture of an object/action -- see the posting about Hebrew letter/word pictures).]]

Here are the actual classes of the "jots and tittles": a) extra dots associated with certain letters; b) enlarged letters; c) shrunken letters; d) suspended letters (letters lifted up above the rest of the letters in that line).  All of these are ancient variations in the usual lettering of the Torah scrolls, duplicated meticulously.

The first class, the extra "jots/dots" occur 4 times in the Torah (first 5 Books) and 7 times in the rest of the Bible (all in the Book of Psalms, in particular Psalm 107).  Genesis 33:4 is the first jot in the Bible -- in the story of Jacob and Esau -- Jacob is returning to his home after a long exile (to avoid being killed by Esau), the two brothers embrace and kiss -- and there is a set of jots/dots above the Hebrew word for kiss -- traditionally these points are said to refer to the teeth of Esau, meaning that the kiss was not true affection but more a "kiss of death", and though Esau didn't immediately kill Jacob, still there was animosity passed on to the descendants of Esau (the Edomites) toward descendants of Jacob (Israel) -- they were frequently at war with each other.

{this sub-topic under construction -- about half done}
4  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 20, 2015, 01:25:52 PM
One possible evidence for Scripture is that Believers often take older songs and make them more intimate, so that the singer is not singing about God abstractly, but rather directly to Him.  So the "He/His" become "You/Your".  This draws us closer to Him, as we see more clearly by His Spirit how the words of the song apply to our own relationship to our loving Creator/Father/Friend.

Here's a classic example from a song popularized by Sandi Patty:


You promised us that You would be a Counselor
A Mighty God and the Prince of Peace
You promised us that You would be a Father
And You would love us with a love that would not cease.

Well, I tried You and I found Your promises are true
You're everything You said that You would be.
The finest words I know could not begin to tell
Just what You, Jesus, really mean to me.

For You're more wonderful than my mind can conceive
You're more wonderful than my heart can believe
You go beyond my highest hopes and fondest dreams.
You're everything that my soul ever longed for
Everything You've promised and so much more
More than amazing, more than marvelous
More than miraculous could ever be
You're more than wonderful, that’s what You, Jesus, are to me.

I stand amazed when I think that the King of glory
Should come to dwell within the heart of man
I marvel just to know You really love me
When I think of who You are, and who I am.

For You're more wonderful than my mind can conceive
You're more wonderful than my heart can believe
You go beyond my highest hopes and fondest dreams.
You're everything that my soul ever longed for
Everything You've promised and so much more
More than amazing, more than marvelous,
More than miraculous could ever be
You're more than wonderful, that’s what You, Jesus, are to me.


Why not try it?  Take your favorite Christian song/hymn and change it slightly to make it more personal, just between you and Jesus.  It's easy when you get into it, and the "love-light" flows.

For practice here's the same song sung by Larnelle Harris and Sandi Patty in concert.  Try singing along while making the substitution of "You/Yours".  Wow!!!
5  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Abortion and Pre-Natal "miracles" on: April 20, 2015, 12:22:23 PM

I agree with what you are saying.  I find it increasingly difficult to believe that women can look at sonar pictures of babies in the womb, and justify killing it because it is just a "mass of cells".  Fortunately, it looks like the more the sonar pictures become available, the less likely there will be a late-term abortion. 

Now i hear the "next big thing" will be stronger form of birth-control that kills sperm before they can reach the eggs, which takes a day or so.  We'll see...
6  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 17, 2015, 08:58:17 AM
Cosmology is defined as the study of the origin, "evolution" and eventual fate of the universe.  In science, this is constrained to studying the physical universe while eliminating any consideration of God, by definition.

For some time now, the major theory of cosmology has related to "the big bang", the idea that everything came from some extremely dense initial material point which exploded into our expanding universe.  There are many other cosmologies through history (see wikipedia article for a complete chart of these), but the major focus, at least in the popular understanding, has been the Big Bang.

One possible "Biblical cosmology" doesn't necessarily deny this theory, but would be consistent with the Genesis 6-day Creation account.  And that would be if God initially "engineered" the universe totally compressed into a point before there He created any time and space.  Then, again before He materialized the envisioned final state, He expanded the point into the "starting state" of Creation.

So each day of the Creation story would represent His bringing into materialization a different phase of what He had in Mind from before the Beginning.  Instead of everything being created as brand-new, Creation would be more of an "unveilng" of the Master Plan.  Thus, it would appear that a really large explosion spread out the universe, with everything appearing to be very old, though only a day or so in relative perspective to God.

There have also been other scientific theories, such as ones which propose multiple universes, which can "bubble into" other universes, giving the appearance of each growing and/or decreasing as they interact.  This has inspired some writers and poets, but hasn't been as widely accepted as the "all from nothing bang".

Now, there is a growing trend among physical theorists, as i understand it, toward revival of older theories which propose the idea of eternally existing matter, which is not expanding outward from a singular point of ultra-high density, but is more like "steady state".  Science magazines and programs seem to promote this as fitting the mathematics involved better.

Like with the "big bang", an explanation (automatically ruled out by science generally of course), is that God designed all the minutest details before creating the entire universe which was materialized in "6 phases".  And in both cases, the theories of mankind ultimately do not answer the questions "Why is there something rather than nothing?" and "What caused the initial matter/energy?", but the Scripture does.

We have been trained by our culture, perhaps, to think of the Biblical Creation account as "primitive, and merely symbolic" -- the product of an "ignorant, immature" society.  If so, we might find it interesting to compare the Scriptural account to the creation stories of other cultures and time periods.

Another mental exercise is to try to find any book, which contains a detailed creation account, that also has the attributes listed in the outline of this topic in the first post above.  For example, which other religious/spiritual book, that mentions exactly how the universe came to be, also predicts, accurately, many specific occurances in the future history of that universe.  The Bible stands alone in this respect, does it not?

Cosmological theories come and go, but "the Word of God is everlasting".
7  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 14, 2015, 09:06:55 AM
There are many places where the universal "Flood story" is documented, from many cultures.  Here is part of a good article which does some detailed comparisons in chart form, (especially right after where i leave off the quote) from: .


Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood. H.S. Bellamy in Moons, Myths and Men estimates that altogether there are over 500 Flood legends worldwide. Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.

These flood tales are frequently linked by common elements that parallel the Biblical account including the warning of the coming flood, the construction of a boat in advance, the storage of animals, the inclusion of family, and the release of birds to determine if the water level had subsided. The overwhelming consistency among flood legends found in distant parts of the globe indicates they were derived from the same origin (the Bible's record), but oral transcription has changed the details through time.

Perhaps the second most important historical account of a global flood can be found in a Babylonian flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. When the Biblical and Babylonian accounts are compared, a number of outstanding similarities are found that leave no doubt these stories are rooted in the same event or oral tradition.

BABYLONIAN:  Take the seed of all creatures aboard the ship.    
BIBLE:  Gen. 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring.

BABYLONIAN:  I boarded the ship and closed the door.    
BIBLE:  Gen. 7:1 Come into the Ark   Gen. 7:16 The Lord shut him in.

BABYLONIAN:   I sent out a dove . . . The dove went, then came back, no resting-place appeared for it, so it returned.    
BIBLE:  Gen. 8:8 He sent out a dove...But the dove found no resting-place . . . and she returned.

BABYLONIAN:  Then I sent out a raven . .it was the waters receding, it ate, it flew about to and fro, it did not return.    
BIBLE:  Gen. 8:7 He sent out a raven, which kept going to and fro until the waters had dried up from the Earth.

BABYLONIAN:  I made a libation on the peak of the mountain.    
BIBLE:  Gen. 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord (on the mountain) and offered burnt offerings.


[A very detailed comparison chart of some of the major stories of the Flood follows this, at the website cited above.]
8  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Our riches in Christ on: April 12, 2015, 12:08:00 PM
Here's a small section of the verses in the first post above.  I noticed how easy it is for me to kind of "gloss over" these promises of Jesus Christ.  But when we really stop to consider them, they are dramatic, revolutionary, exciting statements of our future and perhaps, our present.

John 14:20  I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
John 15:4,5  He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit.

John 15:7  If you abide in Me, and My Words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

When our wills are aligned with His, He always answers our prayers, since He delights in giving us His greatest good, as we learn to delight in Him.

Psalm 37:4
"Delight yourself also in the Lord, and He shall give you the desires of your heart."

Psalm 37:23
"The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delights in his way."

[I note that in the last verse, the He/his could also be he/His...]
9  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 12, 2015, 11:55:51 AM
One of the greatest benefits of believing/relying on the Bible, and through it Christ Jesus, is the experience of being set free from the "chains" that have bound us.  In Scripture, there are examples of Joseph being released from prison, and the setting free of the children of Israel when they were slaves in Egypt -- when YHWH through Moses said "Let My people go!", which pharaoh had to do.

Plus God instituted a regular time for freeing those people who had gone into slavery in the Promised Land because of indebtedness: the year of Jubilee, which occurs after seven sets of seven yearly intervals (49 total) are finished. This proclamation of a fiftieth "liberty" year occurs on one of God's annual feast days known as the Day of Atonement. Because God owns everything, He set up a special, regularly occurring time period where His will is that a man's possessions are returned to him, he is released from any servitude.

Leviticus 25:10, 39
"This fiftieth (Jubilee) year is sacred — it is a time of freedom and of celebration when everyone will receive back their original property, and slaves will return home to their families.  This is a year of complete celebration, so don’t plant any seed or harvest what your fields or vineyards produce."

“If one of your brothers becomes indigent and has to sell himself to you, don’t make him work as a slave.  Treat him as a hired hand or a guest among you. He will work for you until the Jubilee."

And the freeing of captives is a common theme in Scripture, in fact, it is part of Christ's "commission statement" as He quoted from the Book of Isaiah in starting His earthly ministry:

Luke 4:18 Jesus quoting Isaiah 61:1
“The Spirit of the LORD (YHWH) God is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound..."

And Jesus always keeps His Word.

John 8:31-36
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My Word, you are My disciples indeed.  And you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free.”

They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.  And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.  Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

In His time on earth in bodily form, Jesus went about freeing people from disease, sin, demonic possession, and the internal prisons like fear and self-centeredness.  He still does so today.  Though the Believer will not always be free in the eyes of the world, even in the midst of the outer appearance of slavery, there will be an inner freedom, in Christ, that the world doesn't know.

John 14:27  Jesus speaking:
"Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."
10  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 11, 2015, 10:09:54 AM
Continuing an introductory view of ancient Hebrew "letter/word pictures", we apply the same analysis as in the immediate post above to other words which have powerful meanings in visual form.  This is from a previous topic in the theology forum:


K_k:  Another "more-than-coincidence" Hebrew word picture is for "TORAH", which as i understand it means "The Teaching", or "The Instruction".  The letter pictures for Torah are a cross, a nail (or symbolically a hook), a man's head, and an open-window facing left (at the end of a word "Heh" means "comes out of").

So putting that together, the Torah, The Teaching, of Scripture, is "What comes out of the Cross, the nail , the Man."

Nice "accident" of language, isn't it?  I just love how God buried levels of meaning in both the Bible and Hebrew.  "Gold mine" seems appropriate."


(later):  I will admit that it could be coincidence that the symbols in ancient Hebrew for strength and home are combined to make the word AB, for father.  And it could be coincidental that putting an open-window symbol in the middle of those same two letters creates the word for Love.  And as mentioned earlier, the symbols for Torah (the Teaching of God) are those of a cross, a nail, a man, and an open-window.

The examples of "coincidences" continue for pages and pages and pages.  As another case in point, if i recall correctly, the word for the Hebrew language, itself, are the symbols for "to see the Son", an eye, a house and a man.  (The letters for 'son' are a house/tent symbol followed by a man symbol -- the "house-man".)

As an alternative to our merely "reading meaning into" these symbols, let me suggest that when God wrote the Hebrew language down with His finger in stone (twice), He gave them symbols they could easily understand in pictorial form.  They were trained to read hieroglyphics, at least to some degree.  He gave them a more simplified, yet usable form of picture symbols which revealed His heart, and the essence of the Gospel, as well as the Law, in a streamlined format.

Not wanting to be dogmatic about this, just suggesting a possibility.  Personally, i believe there are layers of meaning in the Word of God that are far beyond what we will discover before He comes back for us."


(still later):  Here are some more examples of ancient Hebrew picture symbols similar to those detailed above.

The Hebrew word for "religion" is composed of the pictures of a door/tent-flap and a cross-sign.  The Door of/to the Cross.

The Hebrew word for "the Word" is composed of the pictures of a door, a tent/home, and a man. Recalling that a "tent-man" is a son, this becomes The Word is the Door to the Son.

A Hebrew word for God is EL, composed of pictures of an ox-head and a staff/cattle-prod.  Which would mean Strong or First Controller.

Jesus said He was the Alpha and Omega (first and last letters of Greek), which in Hebrew is Aleph and Tav (first and last letters of Hebrew).  The picture symbols are ox-head and cross-sign.  The Strength or Power of the Cross or Covenant -- Jesus.

More word picture studies are available through

11  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 10, 2015, 01:24:32 PM
The current Hebrew alphabet was adopted during the Babylonian captivity, but before that the language was closer to a "picture language", however it was much more accurate and meaningful than the hieroglyphics the Israelites would have been exposed to in the Egyptian captivity.

Recall that God wrote in stone with His finger, the 10 Commandments, (twice), so He gave them a new or renewed visual alphabet that would make His meanings more clear.  Here's some beginning info from a description of the work done by Frank T. Seekins on the subject of Hebrew word pictures:    


What are Word Pictures?

In ancient Hebrew, like Chinese and ancient Egyptian, every word was formed by adding "pictures" together to "paint" or illustrate the meaning of a word. A word picture is a word that is described by pictures.

When ancient Hebrew was first written, each letter represented both a sound and a picture. Even if you or the people you teach are not familiar with the Hebrew sounds and have no experience with this language, the pictures illustrated by the Hebrew words will speak for themselves!


"I believe that the Hebrew word pictures were designed by God as a tool for Biblical discipleship and teaching his holy words. One constant response I hear, is that the Hebrew word pictures create a new hunger for what the Bible teaches. What I love about the Hebrew word pictures is that they draw people back to the Bible."

Dr. Frank T. Seekins

(see, for example,


To look at first of the "letter pictures" of ancient Hebrew, check in about any unabridged dictionary.  You will find the symbol for the letter "A" (in Hebrew the "aleph" letter) was basically the head of an ox, representing strength, and power, leader -- especially since the ox was the strongest animal for doing hard work like ploughing in ancient culture.

And the symbol in the older Hebrew for the "B" (called "bet") looked like a "pup-tent" with an entry rug to the left side.  Imagine laying a "b" down to the left and changing the circular part into a triangle.  For a nomadic people this symbolized their "house" or "home", their tent.

All of the letters in that language have specific picture symbols, and the combination of the letters to spell words have an additional, visual component that was important to their understanding.

For example, the word for "father", in short form was an "alpha" and a "bet" ["ab"], or an ox head and a tent.  In the pictures mentioned, we have "the strength or leader of the home".  The more intimate form of the word was "abba" or "ox tent tent ox", and that would translate, perhaps, as "strength of the home, when the home is strong".

And i find it interesting that the word for love "ahab" adds a third letter "h" ("hey"), which has the picture value of what appears to be a capital "E" pointing backwards, with the three arms pointing a little toward the ground.  It reminds me of a partially open slated window in a mobile home or tent.

The "h" symbol has the meaning of "what comes out of" (when at the beginning/end of the word) or "that which is revealed coming from the inside" (when in the middle).  Similar to what comes out of the window of the tent, or can be seen from the outside looking in.  So "ahab" (love) is "the strength that comes from the father", and love is "the heart of the father revealed".

There are many, many more valuable insights which Seekins has uncovered.  I'll try to give other important examples, next time.
12  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 08, 2015, 04:12:27 PM
I found a topic i had opened in the theology forum, back in 2011, entitled
"Creation week posters summarizing design features".  There i describe 7 posters from the Geoscience Research Institute, one for each day of Creation, which give some more detail on how many factors there are related to life being found on earth.

Here is the "data" from the first 2 posters.  To see the entire set of posters, visit:  (note the first one may not load large format)


Of all the electromagnetic frequencies which exist in the universe, the visible light spectrum which we depend on for so much of life, is less than one trillioneth of one trillioneth of the universe's range of natural electromagnetic emissions.

That amounts to a fraction of 1 over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
which is a very, very small number.  How fortunate that we just happen to be in a position from the sun in which we don't get burned or frozen, but still have just the right amount of light to maintain life, especially for photosynthesis to occur.  Which is no surprise to those who believe in God, of course, just to evolutionists.

And speaking of the sun, here's another factoid from poster 1.

"Most stars are not capable of supporting life.  The most common stars found within our galaxy are class M stars.  These stars are much cooler than our sun.  Life on our planet would not be able to survive in the cooler temperatures that would be present.

"Our sun is a class G star, which is a small class of stars and one of only two types that seem suitable for supporting life.  Our sun seems to have special properties that enable life as we know it to survive on Earth."

K_k:  But if we were much closer to the sun, like Venus is, we would have unlivable conditions.  Venus has a dense cloud cover that causes a greenhouse effect which raises temperatures on the surface to roughly 460 degrees celsius.  And, of course, Mars is plenty cold, but Earth is just right.

Gee, you might think a Designer planned our location, or something...


Here's some info from the Day 2 poster:

The earth is just the right size for holding an atmosphere.  If it were any smaller, like mars, it couldn't hold it, and if it were larger, like saturn, the gravitational field would also hold in gases such as hydrogen and helium, making the air unbreathable.

The CO2 content of the air on earth is just right for life.  Too little carbon dioxide would limit plant growth and permit large temperature swings.  Too much and we would have a runaway greenhouse that would lead to a poisonous atmosphere.

We also have just the right combination of gases, with O2 and CO2 in the proper balance to support life, but with minimal amounts of toxic gases.  Too little O2 and we couldn't breathe, too much would kill us and let fires burn out of control.

Conveniently, 78 percent of our atmosphere is nitrogen which is harmless to us because it is fairly inert. Which makes our atmosphere unique among the planets.  Venus has a majority of hydrogen sulfide in its atmosphere, while saturn's lower levels are thought to be ammonium hydrosulfide (which can easily convert to the poisonous gas hydrogen sulfide).

Earth is the only planet in the solar system to have life and a transparent atmosphere.  Again, as in Day 1, we see that we have been given a planet uniquely suitable for life, which supports the Genesis account and makes the accidental appearance of life increasingly improbable.  

By the time we get to Day 7, looking at all the factors for the week of Creation, the odds of the accidental development of life on earth become astronomically low (to say the least).
13  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Eternal torture appears dead at last on: April 07, 2015, 12:47:59 PM

Wow, F&G is alive and well again -- there are so many topics in this forum that the truth about what Scripture says on the final Death of the lost, gets pushed down fast.  Here's some more important info to consider:

The following is a youtube video that documents some of the earliest "church fathers" who taught conditional immortality, rather than eternal torture:

which leads to another excellent video that shows the case for conditional immortality:

14  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Index: Scripture-supporting evidences on: April 07, 2015, 11:47:46 AM
Ever stop and think about how likely, or rather unlikely, it is for life as we know it to exist?  There are lots and lots of variables to consider, each of which must be "fine-tuned" so to speak, for life to develop and persist.  

Although not "proof" of a Creator, the probabilities involved in all such factors being present at the same time and place lend more credibility to Divine Creation than to random explosions of everything from nothing.  (Duh)  

Here is one beginning list, which is not complete, and the probabilities stated are not exact of course, but it may stimulate thought on the subject (reference at bottom):


Lets look at the earth and the variables involved that must be "just right" for life to exist, apart from the argument of how life began. I will offer some of the variables and the estimated probability that any planet would have that condition so that we can calculate the probability of ANY planet being so suited for life. These factors were chosen for a specific property and reason. Change any factor listed below significantly and life on earth could not exist.

SIZE AND GRAVITY: There is a range for the size of a planet and its gravity, which supports life, and it is small. A planet the size of Jupiter would have gravity that would crush any life form, and any high order carbon molecules, out of existence. Of the 8 planets + Pluto in our solar system there are 3 that fall within that range, Venus, Earth, and Mars.  There is the possibility of some of the moons of Saturn and Jupiter being within the range but nothing conclusive. An estimated guess of probability - .4 or 4 out of 10

WATER: Without a sufficient amount of water, life could not exist. For reasons that go back to the early beginning of the solar system, the earth is the only planet known with ANY significant amount of water. Of the planets of our solar system only earth meets that requirement. Estimated probability - .1

ATMOSPHERE: Not only must a planet have an atmosphere, it must have a certain percentage of certain gasses to permit life. On earth the air we breath is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% argon and carbon dioxide. Without the 78% nitrogen to "blanket' the combustion of oxygen, our world would 'burn up' from oxidation. Nitrogen inhibits combustion and permits life to flourish. No other planet comes close to this makeup of atmosphere. Estimated probability - .01

OXYGEN: The range of oxygen level in the atmosphere that permits life can be fairly broad, but oxygen is definitely necessary for life. Mars falls far short in that respect, and so does Venus. The amount of 'pure' oxygen in the atmosphere is dependent on many things, like volcanism, thermal activity in the core of the planet, and the amount of metal in the crust. Too much metal would absorb the oxygen in the air in the form of rust and oxidation. Estimated probability - .01

RARE EARTHS MINERALS: Many chemical processes necessary for life are dependent on elements we call 'rare earth' minerals. These only exist as 'trace' amounts, but without which life could not continue. Estimated probability - .1

THE SUN: Our sun is an average star in both composition and size. The larger a star is the faster it burns out. Life has been on the earth longer than those larger stars would exist. Smaller stars last longer but do not develop properly to give off the heat and radiation necessary to sustain life on any planets that form. The smaller the star the less likely it will form a planetary system at all. Estimated probability - .3

DISTANCE FROM THE SUN: To have a planet with a surface temperature within the bounds for life, it must be within the 'biosphere' of a star, a temperate zone of a given distance from the source of radiation and heat. That would depend on the size of the star. For an average star the size of our sun, that distance would be about 75 to 150 million miles. Estimated probability - .2

RADIOACTIVITY: Without radioactivity, the earth would have cooled to a cold rock 3 billion years ago. Radioactivity is responsible for the volcanism, and heat generated in the interior of the earth. Volcanism is responsible for many of the rare elements we need as well as the oxygen in the air. Most rocky planets have some radioactivity. Estimated probability .5

DISTANCE AND PLACEMENT FROM THE GALACTIC CENTER: We receive very little of the x-rays and gamma rays given off from the galactic center, that would affect all life and its development on earth. We live on the outer rim of the Milky Way, in a less dense portion of the galaxy, away from the noise, dust, and dangers of the interior. Estimated  probability - .5

THE OZONE LAYER: Animal life on land survives because of the ozone layer which shields the ultraviolet rays from reaching the earth's surface. The ozone layer would never have formed without oxygen reaching a given level of density in the atmosphere. A planet with less oxygen would not have an ozone layer. Earth is the only planet in the solar system with an ozone layer. Estimated probability - .1

VOLCANIC ACTIVITY: Volcanic activity is responsible for bringing heaver elements and gasses to the surface, as well as oxygen. Without this activity, the planet would never have sustained life in the first place. Mars once had such activity, but appears to be inactive now. Estimated probability - .3

EARTH'S  MAGNETIC FIELD: We are bombarded daily with deadly rays from the sun, but are protected by the earth's magnetic field. Mars does not have a field and thus, most of its atmosphere and water were 'blown away' early in its life by the solar wind. Estimated probability - .2

SEASONS: Because of the earths tilt on its axis, we have seasons, and no part of the earth is extremely hot or cold. The seasons have balancing effect of the temperature on the surface and cause the winds and sea currents which we and all life depend on for a temperate climate. Mars has seasons but little atmosphere. Other planets have extreme tilts. Estimated probability - .2

THE MOON: Most people don't think of the moon as necessary for life. We have the tides that are very important for some species, but the very early collision of a smaller Mars sized planet and the earth is what caused the moon. It also tilted the earth on its axis and caused seasons. The earth and moon should more accurately be called a 'two-planet' system, as the size of earth's moon is greatly larger in proportion to the earth, than any other planet. The moon early in its existence also shielded the earth from bombardment by meteor showers that were devastating. The craters on the moon are the evidence of that factor. No other planet has undergone such a unique event in its history. Estimated probability - .0001

There are other factors, but these are the most crucial. If any one of the above factors were missing, life could not have survived or developed on planet earth.

Multiplying all the probabilities of the above will give us the probability of any given planet having the conditions necessary for life.


Or  seven chances in 10 quadrillion possibility. (for those following the U.S. budget, one quadrillion is a thousand Trillion)

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I may know of a more complete source of information on factors not covered by this list.  I'll add that info in summary form if i am permitted to later.
15  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: April 06, 2015, 12:12:39 PM
Jesus sure could be shocking at times, (and still is at times i think), couldn't He?

From the list of verses in the first post above:

John 6:54-56
"Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal Life, and I will raise him up at the last Day.  For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.  He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me, and I in him."

John 14:19-20
“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.  At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

Have you(i) tasted Him lately?

Psalm 34:8
"Oh, taste and see that the LORD (YHWH) is good; blessed is the man who trusts in Him!"

Hebrews 2:9
"We see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."
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